#127 - Kasey Jo Orvidas, PhD - The Psychology of Self-Sabotage, Self-Control, and Lifestyle Change

What is up and welcome back to the talk and nutrition podcast today we're back with another mindset episode. I feel like we've been diving more and more into mindset, willpower, self control. And I don't think there's anyone else as you know, qualified to talk about this stuff. I feel like as Casey Joe, what's up Casey, how are you? Hey, yeah, I feel pretty qualified. I'm glad that I seem qualified. Now we were just talking about this before we had record, but like with your course, like I'll, I just got to give you credit for that one. Like that changed my coaching, you know, for the better, like just a mindset piece. It's so huge. Um, but before we just jump in, like for new listeners, like who are you, what do you do? Yeah, I'm like, how far back do you want me to start? So my background is mainly in psychology for health and fitness. So I have a PhD in psychology and I specifically spent nearly five years researching how your mindset plays a role and how often you exercise and how healthy you eat. So. They've been boots on the ground in the trenches as a coach myself for almost a decade at this point too. So I was a coach while I was getting my PhD. So I got to spend time in the lab actually researching some of these concepts and then literally leave the lab and go work with clients one -on -one and see how that applies in the real world, which was really cool. I think there's a big gap between academia and practice a lot of the time. And honestly, that's why I decided not to stay in academia. So today I own KJO Coaching, which is a one -on -one health and fitness coaching company. We have a very strong emphasis on mindset and behavior change. And then I also, as you were speaking to, have the Health Mindset Coaching Certification, which is a certification for other health and fitness coaches to essentially learn the basics of mindset and behavior change and psychology from a scientific perspective, but how to translate that science into coaching practices. So it's essentially my way of saying, you don't need a PhD, you don't need like doctoral level education in this manner to really, really benefit your clients. But I do have a 13 week program that can teach you a lot of that stuff. Absolutely. Do you feel like a lot of the mindset stuff on Instagram and you know, like when you see someone I just like Look, we're in here sometimes with the stuff that people put out It is tough, I will say. Obviously, I operate from a space of understanding that not everyone has the level of education that I have and the training that I have. And the unfortunate part of all of this is that your basic nutrition and exercise certifications don't spend very much time on mindset and behavior change. And if they do, it's not always actually evidence -based and they're not actually the most proper tools and most effective tools that you could be using. So as much as, yes, it can be a little cringy to use that word specifically, especially I think just as mindset and psychology has gained popularity in the last probably like three to five years, people are really recognizing that this isn't just about teaching people how to track macros and about progressive overload, but we can have all of that information and share it with our clients and it will fall flat unless we can actually help them change their behavior and think differently. And that's where a lot of this stuff comes in and people... end up just saying, well, I can help you with your mindset too. I happen to be a mindset coach. But the reality is most people, again, it just comes from a place of misunderstanding for the most part that there is actually a science and a practice to this stuff. It's not just, just believe in yourself or we'll try again next week. It's all going to be fine type of situation. There's actual strategies and tools that you can implement to be a more effective coach. Yeah, to your point as well. Also knowing that people are different kind of like levels with their knowledge and all that. I do get it. Social media too, like right now it's just it's getting out of hand. I feel like but that's a whole different story. But with like misinformation and just, you know, it gets confusing and nutrition is already like that. But again, like that mindset piece. I feel like that that should be taught, you know, right off the bat because. here you're getting certified is like, Hey, I'm learning about, you what creatine does and ATP and the macros and all that good stuff. And that's super key. Of course, but coaching like it's the, Hey, how can we get you to adhere to this thing? Living a normal life with stress, a job school kids, you know, your mind, your mindset struggles. Like that's the hard part. That's where coaching comes in, you know, um, interesting for bringing that up. I have not really thought about it this way before, but the truth is learning nutrition and exercise and all of that stuff is not actually learning how to be a coach. And I think that's where people get confused, right? Is that if I have this higher level of understanding about protein, carbs and fats and ATP and creatine and all of these things, then like now I can go and coach people. But actually learning that stuff is not teaching you how to coach and actually the soft skills of coaching, actually communicating with your clients and helping them implement these changes and stick to things for the long term is where psychology and mindset and behavior change comes into play. And people are starting to recognize that, that it's simply not enough to have the education on nutrition and exercise that you actually need to have the education and the training too on actual coaching skills. 100 % because it's like yeah, sure knowing is important. Of course and even for the client Hey, like you probably want to know what protein does and why it's key to get your steps in and all that but then like hey, are you actually doing the thing like are we applying what we learn and How like how well are we singing to that? Because here's my first kind of question. I want to bring up. It's like what do you think people are so? In client you like self sabotage, you know Because we all like people kind of know they should be eating veggies and fruits and drink water and go to the gym. But a lot of people are not doing that thing, right? Even though they have this big goal. What do you think that is?-hmm. Mm -hmm. And yeah, that is that's the golden question. All of these people know that they should be doing the thing. Why aren't they actually doing the thing? Right. And that's honestly kind of the question that led me to grad school and finding the mindset lab and spending so much time on this stuff. And ultimately, why people self -sabotage is there's a variety of reasons and it can look very different depending on the person, too. And I think that's also something that's very important to remember if you are a coach or if you are someone who's struggling with self -sabotage. that we can't just slap a label on it and say this is what everybody deals with because it is so different depending on the person. It could be because you are triggering something from your past that's then causing you to self -sabotage. Someone else may have zero triggers or any past involvement, and they're just very much susceptible to instant gratification. There's so many different layers and levels to this, but ultimately, I think what's important to remember about self -sabotage is that it is a very normal human thing to do. And we usually see it as like, oh, it's this bad, terrible thing that's going to keep me from reaching my goals. And yes, it can hold you back, but it's also important to remember, oh, this is just human nature per usual, doing its thing. And a lot of times it is somehow related to protecting you. So you are self -sabotaging in order to stay safe in some capacity. Obviously, it's usually not something that's actually keeping us safe in the moment. Years and years ago, as our brains were developing, we were trying to keep ourselves safe from actual threats, saber-tooth tigers, poisonous berries, that sort of thing. And a lot of that software in our brains still exists today. So we are... seeking things like instant gratification and we want the cookie right now rather than thinking about our long -term weight loss goal because cookie means energy, means calories, means survival. So I think we don't talk enough about how important it is to give ourselves grace that we are experiencing that. But then obviously the flip side of that too is that we don't want to normalize it so hard that we think, okay, this is just something that every human being deal... with, it's part of my wiring, it's part of my brain, then what the heck am I supposed to think I can do about it? And then that can be a very slippery slope into a fixed mindset. So we need to be aware that, hey, this is something that is pretty normal and it makes sense giving our biological wiring, but that does not mean it's not something that can be changed. And honestly, bringing awareness to it and realizing, oh, this is something that I'm self -sabotaging because my brain is just trying to protect me. me, try to keep me safe, trying to keep me alive. Great. Now that I know that I can kind of like catch it when it happens and go, okay, like, no, no, no, sweetie, we don't need to go there. We're in the 21st century. We don't need to worry. Like we're good. There's always going to be more food type of thing. And you can literally, truly like kind of like talk yourself through it in that way and start to recognize those patterns of like, oh, I see what I'm doing right now. I see where this is coming from. This is like, ultimately like doesn't make any sense in the current moment. But I understand where this is coming from. And then from there, you can kind of pivot in a different direction because you get it. You're like, oh, okay, this is not really accurate. So let's try to go a different direction and think about this differently. And the more you can do that, the more natural it will become. And that just becomes more or less your default setting rather than even having to go to that self -sabotaging place in the first place. Yeah, I think that's huge. Just understanding that, hey, like, first of all, it is normal, kind of also being okay with that, right? And then, hey, maybe it's going to take a few times before you actually start to notice like, hey, I'm doing this right now, you know, but just that awareness, I think that's huge. Now to add another layer of like complexity on top of that, that makes it worse for most people these days. Can you kind of explain how, you know, stress and fatigue and all that? kinda affects that as well as like self control and willpower and stuff. Yeah, yeah. So I like to say that stress and self-control are somewhat enemies. And I say that because they really operate in entirely different sectors of your brain. So when we're looking at self -control, willpower, deliberate decision -making, honestly, like a lot of like your growth mindset really lives in your frontal lobe, which is the big lobe directly behind your forehead. Whereas self -control or not self-control, your... Oh my gosh, I totally just lost my train of thought. We're talking about stress. Oh my God, so sorry. Whereas stress lives in an entirely different part of your brain, right? So we're talking about your midbrain region, and this is really like the survival place inside your brain. So this is where you may have like emotional instincts or when you're feeling anxious about something, nervous about something, that's the area of your brain that really gets lit up. So when we're seeking self -control and making these deliberate decisions in the moment, it is essentially diverting resources away from that midbrain, but that's be really difficult to do when you are stressed and anxious, and that is sort of the place that you're living in. It is nearly impossible to move away from that and go into an entirely different part of your brain that is about deliberate decision -making and self-control. So they really do kind of... They are at odds with each other. Again, this doesn't mean that anytime you're stressed out, you can't have self-control. That's not what I'm saying. But it's important to recognize that, You are kind of like putting two guys competing each other, right? So instead in those moments, the best thing you can really do, like big surprise, is try to bring your stress levels down. Try to bring that anxiety down because when you can bring that down, it frees up more mental resources to actually be put towards self -control. So... Again, with all of the stuff that I'm saying, I don't want you to think, well, that's just the way my brain is and there's nothing I can do about it because you absolutely can. It just may take a little bit more deliberation and to sit down and think, okay, this is where I'm at right now, deep breaths, how do I move myself into a different space? And we know obviously there are so many benefits to being in a more parasympathetic space instead of sympathetic and stressed out and fight or flight all of the time. And that is one of them. like feeling like you have more control and feeling like you can go against some of those self -sabotaging behaviors when you are in less of a stressed out state. Yeah, that's why you also do your your best planning. And that's where you can actually zoom out and just reflect on stuff, right? Because when you're in the moment, and we're emotional and stressed, it's like, no one's gonna make the right decision that you know, I mean, I know I don't, at least, you know, I'll speak for myself. I actually recently had a bit of a stressful time, like a week, just got a shitty week, you know. And I was also like being in that emotional state. And then I caught myself I was like, hey, I just got to zoom out real quick. Like, let me try to do some Meditation, journaling, whatever it takes, going on a walk, just really think things through. And then it's like, oh, you know what? I'm kind of just being a little bit, you know, emotional right now, I guess, or stress and, you know, I'm kind of overreacting, whatever it is, is when you can catch yourself and you can then zoom out and try to be in a parasympathetic state. Like that's where you can do your better planning, your problem solving. And guess what? The very next day, just caught on with my week, you know? And I was like, okay, more actionable. Okay, I'm going to do something about the situation. Cool. All good. I do think it's difficult though, right? To kind of be, to learn how to be able to catch yourself in those kinds of moments. Yeah, easier said than done, for sure. Like the way that we're describing, it's like, oh, well, you know, when you're stressed out, just take a deep breath and then suddenly you'll be able to use your self -control. And like, I wish it was that easy, right? because we do really get caught up in those emotions and it can feel impossible to break free of them. But I think one thing to remember is that ultimately you are the one who's assigning meaning to anything. And two people may experience the exact same stressors and one person may be, you know, call it more resilient or whatever and feel like, okay, this is a stressful situation, but I know how to get myself out of it. I can deal with it. And the other person may be totally like incapacitated and have no idea like what to do and just like let it totally consume them. and they may be literally experiencing the exact same thing. And a lot of that does come down to your mindset and how you actually see those things. And kind of speaking of stress, you probably remember that your mindset around stress makes all of the difference. And we have a ton of research on this too, talking about whether you see stress as something that could be enhancing to your life or something that is debilitating. And obviously most people think, you know, stress equals bad always. But the reality is, I think we've all felt this before too. a little bit of stress, a little bit of pressure actually helps us perform better and actually makes us like more excited about things and it feels more like you can get into like the flow state and things of that nature when you have a little bit of like pressure on you. So if you can get into this place of like stress is actually a good thing a lot of the time. And it can help me do better at what I'm doing. And it doesn't necessarily always have to be this bad thing. The more you can truly believe that and your mindset can be in that place, the more resilient you're going to be and the more successful you're going to be even in the face of stressful circumstances versus someone else who may see this as all just like, if I feel this way, that's bad and things are not going to go the way that I want them to. So your mindset about stress is a really big part. of your ability to manage it. I think that's so fascinating because this literature is like what you believe is kind of true. Same with like the whole placebo thing is like there's a couple of really crazy studies out there too about placebo. It's like it's a very real thing. I think sometimes. Not everyone might be like open to that to kind of hear that because it's like, oh, it's placebo is fake, you know, like, no, it's actually like something to this stuff, you know? So your mindset is so huge. Um, so that being said, because there's also a lot of research on like your mindset around like ego depletion, right? And like how much self -control like willpower we have there today. I recently did an article about this and I looked into some studies and then I kind of just stopped at one. because this is where someone like you is way more versed in this stuff. But like, I was kind of going through pop med and you know, and it's like one study after the other and then the next and then the next and this one is for and against. And then I saw something about like, there's kind of a debate going on. What's your current like understanding of like the research when it comes to ego depletion? Because honestly, for me, it got to a point where I was like, well, this is confusing. I kind of don't know. Like. Let me ask you, you know? Yeah, yeah, no, and that's totally fair because the state of the research is pretty split right now. I will say it's split, but we're definitely moving in a certain direction. So for those of you who are listening and thinking, okay, ego depletion, where are we talking about like my ego or what do you mean? It is essentially the fancy research term for saying like, do you actually believe your self -control can get depleted throughout the day as you use it or not? And what we've seen in the past, I think there's... over 600 studies showing this. Mind you, a lot of them are coming from the same researcher or researchers who are related to the same researcher. So keeping that in mind, all of these studies that do essentially show as you're using your self -control, you have the ability to use it less and less as time goes on. So it is sort of like a muscle. It gets tired. So you can't keep using it as you do. So that was the belief system for a really long time. time. until recently, some other researchers, not from the same group of researchers, started to speculate, well, let's try to replicate some of these results in different contexts. And they weren't getting the same results. And so they said, okay, let's try replicating it in the same context as all of these other studies. We should surely get the same results. And they weren't, again. So there was something else going on here and what some of the more research in this area has come to determine. is that it's less about your ability to keep up with your self -control throughout the day. It's not so much that everyone starts with a bucket of self -control and as you're using it, the amount gets lower and lower and everybody is in this situation. It's more about, again, your belief system around your self -control. Do you actually think that your self-control gets depleted throughout the day? I'd actually be curious for those of you who are listening right now, when I first mentioned this, where you're like, oh yeah, that makes sense. Like that happens to me all the time. Or were you kind of like, huh, I didn't, I never thought of it that way. Because that belief system is what's going to determine whether or not you do quote unquote run out of self -control as the day goes on and as you use it. So they found that, which was really interesting. They were like, hey, this does exist. This phenomenon exists, but really only for the people that think it's the case. The people who don't think that's true, the phenomenon doesn't really exist. And another really interesting study came out too, that was essentially looking at people who considered themselves good at self -control. Like they self -report said, yeah, like I think I'm pretty good at managing my self-control and I can like say no to things even in the face of temptation. And then they looked at the people who are on the flip side of that and said, nope, don't ask me to use my self -control. That's definitely something I'm not very good at and I cannot resist temptation very easily. So they looked at these two people were like, well, what's the difference here? Especially if maybe this theory... of ego depletion and not having enough as the day goes on was true. Like, what's the difference between these two groups of people? And what was really interesting is that once again, it didn't really seem like there was any true difference between the people, but... was more or less their environment and how they set up their days. The people who say, I'm good at self-control, were simply just having to use it less than the people who said, I'm bad at self -control. So it really just becomes like, how often are you having to be in a position where you need self -control? Because the people who feel like they're constantly trying to resist temptation are the ones who feel like they're not very good at self -control. And the people who kind of rarely have to be in that position, probably because they have friends and family who support them, they're in environments where there isn't tempting things around them all the time. Those people are like, no, I'm pretty good at self -control. But again, it's just because they don't have to use it as much. So we're learning a lot more about self-control, and this is how science works. And as we get more information over time, we update our opinions on concepts. And that's kind of what we're seeing now, which is why when you jump on a Google Scholar and you look up ego depletion, you're like, This is confusing. I'm seeing stuff in both directions. But I will say this was something that I updated inside the health mindset coaching certification materials because so much of this other research was starting to come out. And I also actually, I went directly to my PhD advisor and she's a social psychologist at NC State and does a lot of the teaching for undergrads and teaching on like the basics of self -control. And I'm like, what are you teaching the kids these days? And she was like, oh yeah, we don't teach depletion anymore. It is more this other stuff that is coming out. And we talk more about just self-regulation in general, rather than like, oh, this is something that you start with an X amount and it gets depleted over time. Yeah, I think it's so fascinating because I mean, the mind is just fascinating in general. But like that just means that you can let you just create your own environment or at least set it up so that you don't really have to practice that self control, which again, just kind of just directly goes back to, hey, like you actually have control of the situation, even if you don't realize it, right? Because it's not, it's not maybe even the chocolate is just the fact that we have chocolate in the house. Right, right, right. were on and we talked about the Oreos and like I still can't definitely like one, you know. When I start, it's going to go. So that's like one of my weaknesses, you know. No, I'm better, I feel like, but it's still not great, you know. I had the same thing with like Christmas cookies, but still, either way, like, it's like, hey, when I don't have it, you know, I don't even think about it because it's not in the house. I think it's so fascinating when it comes to. So this is something I always wonder. when it comes to exposing yourself to those situations. Like, for example, let's say, okay, let me actually get Oreos. Let me put it on my desk all day. Like exposing yourself to those kinds of challenging scenarios. Do you know if there's any research behind that to where, because this is actually from your newsletter from a little while ago, or not too long ago. If there's any research on... that to where like does that help you like train your willpower kind of or not at all. Yeah, and there's actually there's research to support both of these things in both directions too. And it kind of like I think a lot of this comes down to also just figuring out what works best for you, because ultimately, I think to kind of like my own professional opinion, looking at a lot of the different research is that for sure, to some degree, like exposure therapy is going to help. Right. And so putting yourself in these situations and sort of normalizing that stuff being around, because there's obviously one argument being, if something is around and in your face all the time and it just becomes normalized and it's not something that like, oh my God, I never get to have. And it's just like sort of available all the time. I actually have a friend who she kind of takes this perspective with her kids and like teaching them nutrition. Like they're two, they're both two girls under two. So very young. And instead of being like, once you finish your vegetables, you can have the cookie. She puts the cookie on the plate with the vegetables and just normalizes. And like, this is all food. It's all different types of food. It's not that like one needs to be put up on a pedestal and the other one is something that you like have to get through in order to get to the other thing. So I think to some degree, yes, you can like play with your mindset in that way and see it as something like. not, don't put it on a pedestal, just make it a thing. However, per what I was just talking about with the research in self -control, obviously, if you're constantly putting yourself in situations where you have to use self -control, you are more likely to, quote unquote, fail at that self -control and give into temptation. So if your goal is ultimately to give into temptation less, then you should probably stop putting yourself in situations where it might happen. So there's that side of it too. And I think, again, it's probably... really varies depending on the person and like where you're where you're currently at with things. You know, like some people are literally like, I cannot stop eating the Oreos. Like this is just not possible for me to take a couple out and be good with it. Whereas other people might be like, no, this is something that like Oreos are Oreos are really important to me. And there's something that I really want to keep in my life. So it becomes like, OK, how do we work with keeping them in the house, but making sure you're having them in moderation so it's not feeling bad for you and it's still working for your long term goals. goals and things like that. And again, everyone's going to be different. So I don't want anyone to come at me and be like, she told me to like get rid of my favorite foods. Like that's not necessarily the case. But if your main goal is to not break your self -control and to resist temptation, then the idea is set up your environment so you don't ever even have to run into it in the first place. But if your goal is to keep the Oreos on hand, because they're your favorite thing, then we need to figure out a different strategy. It kind of made me think because I also didn't go and like actually try just getting it and just having it in the house. Like it could be a nice test, you know, like just kind of seeing how that goes. It's just knowing yourself. like you're like familiar with this to just like increasing the friction to do it too. It could be it could be a happy middle ground, right? So rather than maybe having like a glass cookie jar on your counter where you can constantly see the Oreos, like maybe they are on the top shelf, like in your garage or something. I know like random. But then when you're thinking like, oh, I want an Oreo, it's like to go all the way outside. I have to get the ladder. I have to climb up to get these Oreos. Like, is it really it. And a lot of times it's not worth it. And that's where you start to learn too, that like, oh, I actually just want this thing because it's easily accessible. And it's, and it is not requiring me to try very hard to use my self control because I can literally just like grab it off the counter. And what's great about creating friction like that too, is that it creates that space kind of this wraps, brings us back around to what we were talking about at the beginning, but creates that space for you to actually think twice and like, and think about whether or not this is actually something you want to do rather than getting to the point where you're basically already have the Oreo in your mouth before you could be like, oh, should I actually, is this going to fit my macros for the day? You're not even giving yourself the time to think. So if you create more friction and make it a little bit more difficult for yourself to do, it gives you that space to think. You can really decide whether or not it makes sense for you and give you the time and space to also use that self -control if you are wanting to keep them in the house, but just do less of it. And to your point as well, I feel like it's almost like you can't say restriction anymore these days. It's like we can't talk about like, hey, maybe we just shouldn't get it, right? Like there's no right or wrong here. It's just kind of like, hey, you know, for some people it's fine. Other people, like let's maybe try to cut it out or at least for the time being, or let's actually have it and practice having some every single day or every other day, whatever it is. definitely like really dependent on the person with that. And you're right. I think the the R word restriction does get like kind of frowned upon because especially in the flexible dieting world where it's like you can have anything you want. You just have like I F Y M, you know, as long as it fits into your macros, like no big deal. And that flexibility is really great. It allows people autonomy and it allows them to feel like they're not having to like cut out some of their favorite foods. But at the same time, too, some people would stand to benefit from maybe taking some time away from the foods that they feel like they quote unquote don't have self -control over. And there's actually a term that I've coined called momentary restriction. And it's a practice that you can at least try. And it doesn't have to be forever. And that's the beauty of this and why it helps and works psychologically. Cause we're not saying cut out the Oreos forever. We're saying, Hey, for the next two weeks, let's ditch the Oreos and just not have them. But just for two weeks, that's it. If you're feeling like you're having a lot of self -control failures around this and you can't resist the temptation, let's just get rid of them for two weeks. And then we'll reassess how that felt. what we want to do next. And what a lot of people realize when they're taking one to two weeks away from something is that maybe for the first few days, they're like, man, I kind of like miss that. And most of the time it's just because it's habitual. It's like after every meal I would have two Oreos because I want something sweet after I have something savory. But if it's not there, give it one to two weeks. And by the end of it, almost every single time clients will come back and say, yeah, I kind of like forgot about it. It's so surprising. But it was just because it was there and it was habitual. But now, you're can operate from a space of, well, do you want to reintroduce them? And if so, what would the ideal scenario be? Oh, you know, probably like... one to two max per day and at the end of the day, that sort of thing, not after every single meal, whatever. And it's so much easier to reintroduce it in that way once you've taken space and kind of broken that pattern a little bit. So I am a big fan of this idea of momentary restriction and obviously the exact length and whatever thing it is is going to vary depending on the person. I've seen it work really well for alcohol too, for people who just kind of pour a glass of wine as soon as they get home from work every single day. and it allows you to like really zoom out and again create that space in order to sort of like reevaluate how you actually want this to look. I love that. I think this is all like super like applicable stuff for the listener, you know, because like you're going to have to try things out and it's trial and error and you're going to try something. It's just going to work right away. And then other stuff you might have to give like a few tries and that's okay too. I will, cause I was thinking about this. I've definitely had mixed results when it comes to, for example, Hey, someone is really, they think, Hey, I'm doing good with my diet, but then as soon as it's a weekend, right, I just can't stay away from the chocolate to where we tried to introduce some every now and then and we kind of try to normalize it. Whereas almost like 50 50, like some people do great. It's like, it's not a thing anymore. They can just have it any time. So they don't have to have that reward kind of thing, you know, other people kind of backfired. So we said, Hey, you know, We're not going to do that. We're going to try something else. And now for those people, like removing it for a little bit actually worked really well too. So it's like trying different tools and different tactics just to figure out like, Hey, what can we currently adhere to? Like what's probably best also understanding like the seasonality of nutrition, because you mentioned, you know, restricting like, yeah, I mean, if you want to diet, if you want to lose fat, maybe good idea. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. out the Oreos forever or whatever it is or the alcohol. But we do need to understand like, hey, drinking alcohol, going for more processed foods and right. Most of the time is making it more difficult. So can we make a little bit of a trade off to then go back to more flexibility, right? Right, yeah. I feel like there's so many directions I could take what you're talking about too. But yeah, I think so much of the nutrition space has gotten like... difficult and we've clouded so much of this because of this idea of restriction is bad and you shouldn't feel X, Y, Z or whatever. And really, I think there is a happy middle ground where, hey, if you do want to be in a calorie deficit and you do want to lose weight and you want to change your lifestyle and your behaviors, you are going to have to make some quote unquote sacrifices. And I feel like some people hear that and gasp and it's like, oh my gosh, no, I can't imagine doing that. But tell me anywhere else in your life, where you've worked towards something and you have not had to change or sacrifice or restrict some other aspect of your life, right? And that is just, it's part of it. But for some reason, somewhere along the line, we decided that no, like dieting and nutrition and fitness, like that's different. than anything else that I'm working towards in my life. And that's, it's not the case. If you're trying to make your relationship with your partner better, chances are you may have to make some sacrifices or do things different in your life that like you don't always want to do, but it's for the better of the relationship and to support the other person. The same thing goes for your diet and for what you're doing from a health and fitness perspective, whatever those goals are. So it's, I'm going to be the first person to say like, there are plenty of people out there are too much of like drill sergeants and like dedication over motive. like, I don't, that's not the space that I play in either, but I'm also not going to say that like, let's just sweep everything under the rug and give yourself grease. And like, no, you don't have to restrict or like get rid of anything that you love in your life. That's, you know, there is a space in between that I really think is, is beneficial for most people. And then you kind of decide, you figure out where on the spectrum you want to land that feels best for you and makes the most sense for you. Yeah. Middle grounds. Like that's just where you want to be for the most part, you know? Like, yeah, like it is because I mean, this is like the whole thing of social media these days, which I do understand makes it way confusing for people too. Because it's so nuanced, it's so individual, there are different approaches. People will see anything and be like, okay, that's, you know, that's what I got to do. I just got to have the discipline and you know, or hey, like, you know what? Dining. You shouldn't be dieting, it needs to be a lifestyle. I mean, yeah, I agree. Like we want to create a healthy lifestyle, but like dieting, like fat loss, like is not a lifestyle, right? It's a temporary change and then you can go into like making it a lifestyle. But it's like, I don't know, this is a whole other conversation, but I wanted to touch on the motivation because you brought that up with the motivational posts and all that. What do you feel like? the need for motivation, because that's the same kind of thing. It's like, hey, we can't restrict anymore. We should do things only when it's easy, only when I feel motivated, right? Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah, and I think that could be really detrimental to most people. I think everyone who's listening here can understand and recognize when they are motivated and that there are days when they're not motivated. And it doesn't mean just for health and fitness. It can mean for work, for working on your relationship, for getting outside and going for a walk, for going to bed on time. Like there's anything. We all have days where we're like, wow, I'm like really into this and really motivated and feeling really good about it. And other days where I'm like, I just, I don't care today, you know? And obviously a lot of people will say like, okay, in those situations, you still have to get shit done. You still have to go to work. You still have to care about your relationship. You still need to take care of yourself, that sort of thing. And if you have a goal, especially at like a fat loss goal, and you are going through that season of I'm dieting right now for this purpose of fat loss, it does require a little bit more time, attention and effort. it's going to feel like I'm not motivated to do that today, but you have to continue to think about instead of your Instagramification, that long -term reward. And so I don't think it is as simple as just stay dedicated. So don't think that that's the direction I'm going with this conversation because there is so much nuance to it, especially from a psychological perspective. So it is honestly harmful for people to go out and say, it's not motivation. It's just discipline. Like I'm going to the gym. I'm not motivated, you can too. That's not really beneficial to anybody, right? And although it may be true, and I can tell you, same thing, and I'm sure, Johan, you're in the same boat too. You're not always motivated, but you still find yourself at the gym because you're still going anyway. But a lot of it comes down to just habits that we've created, lifestyles that we've created, identities that we've created that we want to stay consistent with. So there's a lot other things at play that I guess are under the umbrella term of dedication. Like how does dedication actually happen. It's all of those other things. And so if you're consistently lacking, quote unquote, motivation, and you can't find the dedication, it's likely because we need to work on some of those things that I just mentioned, your identity, how you are setting up the rest of your lifestyle, what your habits look like, going back to self control and self sabotage and your triggers for those things, like all of those sort of psychological underpinnings are really, really important. And they're really different. depending on the person. So if we just go to someone and say, it shouldn't be that hard, just stay dedicated. Like I'm not motivated all the time. You just need to be dedicated to it. You clearly just don't want this enough. And that is so not helpful to anybody because obviously that person wants it. Otherwise they wouldn't be going after it in the first place. Like that's not an argument at all. It's what else is going on beneath the hood? from a psychological perspective that's keeping this person from wanting to feel motivated or dedicated, you know? And a lot of it could come down to especially people who are newer to this stuff that they don't feel comfortable in the gym yet, that they don't know how to, they don't feel really comfortable with counting macros or weighing out their food and that feels really overwhelming to them. Or they just don't, at the end of the day, feel like they are a quote unquote exerciser. They're not a fit person. They aren't someone who does those things. So if you're running up against that, like good luck finding, motivation or dedication. That's what's actually going on. And we need to be sensitive to those things and aware of those things and not just say like, hi, I'm the trainer who's been doing this for 15 years and I'm dedicated, not motivated. No, you cannot compare that guy to Susie Q who just decided to start her health and fitness journey. They're entirely different situations. And I think the more... Exactly. And the more sensitive we can be to those things and the more we can actually cultivate skills and tools to help with those things, both on the client side, like you doing that for yourself and on the coach side, you doing that for your clients, the better off we would be. That's my soapbox of motivation and dedication. but that's great because I think it is not helpful, right? You're saying, oh, you just got to do it. You just got to, you know, get your shit together. And I will say this, like some people actually do like a bit of tough love and there is a time and place for it every now and then maybe. But that's also like knowing the person and kind of knowing, right? Like, hey, what kind of a push they need. But speaking to that, they know they got to go to the gym. We don't have to tell them that. Like you just got to go. It's like, yeah, they fucking knew that. However, there's a reason they're not going. So we got to figure out, okay, what's something and people are deliciter too. Like you can do this with the coach, of course, but also on your own. Like you could try to figure out why that is. Like what is the thing I'm struggling with so that we can be productive and resourceful and just figure it out, you know? So, so what are some tools that you would kind of use for people? just in general that we could kind of take from things like ACT and CBT, right, from psychology that people maybe could try at home by themselves without going to therapy, for example, because this is something you taught us at HMCC. It's like, we can take something from that, right, from psychology, from the therapy, and then learn how this tools kind of work so that we can also try something like that at home to just work through stuff continuously. Yeah, I actually, this is good timing because there's a tool that I kind of caught myself using with myself that I've made a post about before, but I've never really talked about at length. And I had someone ask me recently how I'm managing, I'm going through a diet phase right now, how I'm managing my own hunger. And so I actually literally right before this podcast got on my stories and was like, actually I'm recognizing there's this tool that I use that I could share with you guys. And it does play into... a lot of, I guess we could say cognitive behavioral therapy, CBT, because it requires mindfulness and understanding where things are coming from. And a lot of what CBT is, is related to mindfulness and paying attention to where your thoughts are, what the evidence is for them, what's the evidence against them, that sort of thing. So something I do. And I... don't think, I'm pretty sure it was me that made up this, but I'm not going to like, don't quote me. I call it playing out the script. And essentially it's this idea that when you're in the moment, you're trying to make a decision. And that could be like a business decision. It could be a larger decision, or it could be a, do I want to have the Oreos type of decision. It could be a, do I want to send that text message type of decision. And when you're in the moment, playing out the script in every direction, right? So if I were to eat the Oreos, what is that going to do for me later today, tomorrow, next week? How is that going to make me feel outside of this exact moment? What is the impact for me? And so you could think like, oh, well, if I have the two Oreos, it's 140 calories. I'm only eating 1600 calories right now because I'm in the middle of this diet. That's a pretty significant chunk of my calories for the day when I could use that 160 calories to have like more food volume, feel better, have more, like just feel more full. So you could have that discussion with yourself. And hey, it's okay if you're like, the 140 calories is totally worth it. Like I don't care that it's not gonna make me feel full. Like I definitely, I'm playing out the script and I'm recognizing that later today I will not be disappointed in myself. It's not gonna put me in too bad of a position. I'm gonna do it. And so what's great about this is that you can stop yourself, hopefully, from doing something that you're going to regret later on, like thinking back, like, why did I do that? It wasn't even, the Oreos weren't even that good. Like I'm fricking starving. I would have rather used that for something that was more filling or... you can decide in the moment, like, this is worth it to me and I'm thinking about myself later on and I think I'm still gonna think it's worth it to me. And so you can make a confident decision and not just like an irrational instant gratification in the moment, I'm just gonna eat these things. And then later, even if it does feel okay, you're kind of like, wow, I did that without thinking. Like I was not mindful about that decision. Like either way, that's not gonna feel good. So I really liked this idea of playing out the script. And again, it can work for everything. If you're going to send that angry text message, you can think to yourself, Okay, if I just don't say anything, am I going to feel better about that later? You can also think, how is that person going to respond to me? What are the options of how that person could respond? And if they respond this way, how is it going to make me feel? If they respond that way, how is it going to make me feel? Is it going to resolve any of the feelings I currently have? And just really sit with all the different directions, all of the different scripts that are possible, and then make a decision based on that. And it has saved me so many times, and I recognize that I sort of do that naturally. I actually move forward with a decision and go a certain direction, I am playing up the script of like, is this gonna help Casey later today, next week, whatever? If not. then maybe I shouldn't do it. And I think the more we can train ourselves to do that, the better everything is going to be. I mean, can you imagine a world where everybody did that and actually like took some time to like play out the script of like, what's going to happen if I make, if I do this thing, how different things would be. So that is a, again, it was a tool that I kind of caught myself using and I was like, wow, this has become so innate for me that it's just, it's just what my brain does. And so those of you listening thinking like, okay, yeah, that's, that's, great, but like, obviously, I'm not going to be able to do that every time. And like, no, you're not, you are going to mess up and you are going to like make instant gratification driven decisions still. But the idea is the more you can do it, the more you can train your brain to actually go that direction rather than making like the quick decision. I love that. I was just taking notes. I was like, that's a good one to kind of think, you know, no, that's, that's great. Cause yeah, absolutely. I mean, the world would definitely be a better place if people would, you know, wait responding to that, that email when they're in the moment and stress and you know, like emotional. I mean, in so many scenarios, like I really liked that. Never heard about that one. That's huge. Yeah, that's great. Thank you. Definitely what I'm going to try to apply. So that being said, I think we touched on a lot of really good stuff. I wanted to kind of wrap things up today with a bit of a question, which I feel like it would be nice. Like if we could just change that, like one big thing about the space that we just don't agree with, because you already know, I mean, you also know the whole mindset, like fitness and health space, like it's a bit of a mess right now. I mean, it's kind of always has been, right? It always has been, but. but I do feel like it's getting worse. So my question is, if you could wave a magic wand, right, and just change one thing about the health and fitness space, what would that be? Hmm. Honestly, I think. On the coach side of things, like no surprise, nobody should be surprised that I'm saying this, is that if I could wave a magic wand, it would be that everybody is recognizing the importance of mindset and behavior change in psychology from a scientific perspective. And then it's not just like a woo -woo believe in yourself, but they really were to see that like, okay, this is the foundation of coaching and this is what needs to be taught first, maybe even before we start teaching about nutrition and exercise, right? So if I could have like the NASMs and like these organizations of the health and fitness space to like really lock into that. That would be the magic wand there. I think on the client side of things, I honestly, it would be more less about just mindset and more about just health in general and recognizing that. So many people are worried about spending money on health and fitness coaches, but yet can have like a $700 car payment and not blink an eye. I would wave the magic wand that shows people how important your health is and how much control you really do have over it. And again, sort of like a, can you imagine a world where everybody saw like health and fitness coaching and saw investing in their health and fitness as something just as important as a car payment. It was just something that like everybody did. again, how different things would be. So that would be my magic wand there for just the general population is for people to recognize how much control they have and to see it as an important investment just as much as other things in their lives. Yeah, I love that. I mean, we are biased, we are coaches, but it's like, it's such a good investment. It really is. Right. It definitely changed my life. I mean, yeah, like we believe in this stuff, you know? But I mean, I 100 % agree with that. Absolutely. It's like, it's just the best, best thing you can invest in, like your health in general, right? Absolutely. Awesome. Wanna be respectful of your time as well? So last but not least, where can people find you? Yeah, if you want to come hang out with me on social media, the main place I hang out is Instagram and I'm coach Casey Jo over there. You'll also find me on TikTok and YouTube, but it's, I'm not as very good at keeping up with those other platforms. I'm very much like an Instagram girl through and through. If you're interested in any of the programs that I talked about, learning more about me in general, you can honestly just go to my website. It's CaseyOrvitas .com and that will take you to KJO coaching. It'll take you to HMCC and any of the, programs and offers in between. Awesome. We'll make sure to link that in the show notes. Thanks so much. I'm really excited for level two with you later this year. So I'll talk to you then. We'll stay in touch and to our listener. We'll be back in a couple of days.