#121 - Pia Seeberg - Can you Build Muscle and Lose Fat at the Same Time?

What's up and welcome back to the Talkin' Nutrition Podcast. We got Pia back for episode 121. How are you Pia? I'm fine, thank you. I'm actually watching the sun as I'm standing here recording. So that makes me happy because I haven't seen the sun. Okay, I've been on a little vacation. I saw the sun there. But to see the sun here in Norway, it's quite special. It's great, right? I was thinking about this. I don't know how it is for you guys in the South, but where I live in the North, we always get this like fake spring, where, which is right now, we all feel like, you know, finally, you know, some of the snow is gone and it's like sunny and it feels good and there's already like seagulls now, like making nests and it gets you in that spring mode and then you just get hit with like the worst snowstorm, like April, you know? That's my biggest fear. I think that's more common in Tromsø than in here maybe. But of course we're not fully out of the gates yet. But let's hope we are. I'm hoping. And at least now we see daylight. It's bright in the morning and late in the afternoon. So yeah, I'm just vibing with it. I'm embracing it. I love that. Yeah, me too. I'm loving it too. It's good for the walks, you know. I've been outside quite a bit. I always try to do my calls anyway when I'm walking. So it's nice. It does feel good, you know. How was your trip to sunny Spain by the way? It was super nice. When I landed I just felt right away how much needed it was to feel like the sunlight and wear a t-shirt and just be outside. So it was super nice. For those who was wondering, I spent a week in Gran Canaria just working and visiting a friend and colleague. So I came home with a lot of energy. Great, good. And how was the... Oh yeah, 100%. Like I definitely wanna... I'm at a point where like, I feel like I gotta go somewhere. Although I did recently go to Miami and that was really nice. You know, right? Yeah, it was ridiculous. I know, I should have, you know, cause it ended up being crazy, but long story short, Snowstorm in Trump said... Our plane didn't even get here so I couldn't leave. The whole thing got rebooked for a little bit. It looked like I was not gonna be able to go. And then eventually I got rebooked for the next day, which was great. But that meant that I got to Fort Lauderdale, because here's the thing, you had like a 15 hour layover. I did have a hotel, but still it was a long time. So the long layover, it took me almost like 25 hours to get there, I think. arrived in Fort Lauderdale Thursday evening, basically like 8, 9 p.m. And then I left that Monday morning at like six again or seven. So it was very short trip. It was great. It was awesome. It was like a fitness conference, you know, very like functional health kind of, you know, focused, um, you know, I met a lot of good people, good networking, and it was awesome. I loved it. It was like right by the beach, you know, palm trees and sunny and it was real, really cool. Um, but definitely very short. And you know what? I should have stayed longer because of the delay, I got refunded like almost my whole cost for the flights. And the reason I didn't stay that long, I was like, I don't want to spend another, I don't know, $150 per night or something, right? If it's not like a real vacation, you know, I'm much rather kind of save that, go with my girlfriend, but I could have just gone for longer, I guess. I definitely will next time, you know? Yeah, you should. You should bring your girlfriend and make a vacation out of it as well. Combine work and some time off. Yeah, definitely. Cause that's, we were talking about this off air, but like, that's the nice thing about you and me is that we actually get to, or if we want to, like we can work from anywhere. Now, of course it sounds great to the listener and it's, you know, it's also not like we're lying on the beach with our laptop all the time. Um, I definitely don't, I'm mostly at home, but like, it is really nice. It gives you a lot of freedom, right? You can move around, you can still work. I was doing check-ins on the plane, for example, you know. I was doing it via email, of course, not video like we usually do, but it still works. And that's actually really nice. It gives you a lot of freedom. So I do like that. Yeah, the freedom is the biggest advantage but also the biggest challenge for me because I can't work anytime, anywhere. And I mostly do as well. It's hard for me to put stuff away. But you can't have it all and it's mostly a really positive thing. But sometimes when I see people working in, for example, kindergartens... When they leave the kindergarten, the kids are not going to send them emails about the next day. And of course there's some admin work and stuff as well. But having a job where you can just close the gates and shut off your mind until you're at work the next day. Maybe it's boring for those of you that live your lives that way. But for me, some days that seems really nice. There's always a part that wants what you can't have and what you don't have. It seems greater than this. So just remember to appreciate what you have as well. Definitely. I like that you brought that up because I think it kind of ties into what we're gonna talk about today. So let's actually transition into that because we wanna talk about periodization. And so I'm going through a fat loss phase. We'll talk about this more in a bit, but right now I'm like, I really wish I had more food. You know what I mean? Now I'm kind of struggling to be honest with you. Like not in a sense of like... having a hard time sticking to it, but it's just like, I really noticed, you know what I mean? I will say this, workouts are actually going pretty good still. I'm actually doing a bunch of cardio as well, a lot of steps, but the hunger, it's definitely up there. And, yeah. and then go into a cut, but I got pregnant during the gaining phase, so I haven't done the cut yet. But the hunger for me is like my biggest enemy. So I'm really like, I'm feeling your pain. Yeah, but you know what it is, and this is something we'll talk about more as well today, but I will also say this, I've been cutting for a while and now it's starting to hit. And I want everyone to listen, like, don't expect going into a fat loss phase in like the second day to be like crazy hungry and like have shitty energy levels, because you're not going to. And if that's the case, that's up here, that's in between the ears, because you're not going to notice that quick, right? If so, which again is the case with a lot of strict diets, you know, you're doing it like you're going way too long calories. You're not prioritizing filling foods and those kinds of things. So that's one thing I will say. Good. like what's your goal? Of course your goal is to lose fat, but I can imagine that, I say you can lose fat for a long time without feeling the hunger, really just enjoying life. Maybe you're skipping like the chocolate in the weekends, but that's mostly that. And that's fine for people, but when it really gets like hard, maybe like where you are right now, you should really be like. motivated and in tune with why you're doing it. So what's your motivation for doing this? Because you look awesome, you look fit, what's your thing? I'm not motivated. Let me start with that one. I'm not. You have discipline. Yeah, yeah, yes, I do. Because of my why. So we'll talk about that in a sec, the why, you know, which is, of course, your question. But I don't see that as, as not as motivation as in the traditional sense, as most people will understand motivation as, if that makes sense. Right? It's not that I feel like doing it. I don't. Because I'm very hungry right now. as we speak, you know, and I do miss the, because like I said, the workouts are good, but I do miss that extra energy, right? Having a little bit more in a tank and really kind of like getting like a really solid workout in, you know, I just like, I like food, you know, I like big meals and, you know, and especially the carbs going down and you know, having like fewer oats in my morning breakfast and like it is It's not fun and I'm definitely not motivated, but I will say this, so let's actually talk about the why. Why I do it and what keeps me going is a few things. First of all, I believe in walking the walk as a nutrition coach. I think as coaches, PT's, whatever, we should set the example. And that's not in terms of you have to look shredded, right? It's cool if you want that. If that's a person's own goal, that is fine. And this is my opinion, right? But I do think that we should lead by example by doing the thing. That's why you also shared your journey, which is awesome. And you still do with your training. Hey, I'm training, I'm pregnant. Look, I'm still taking care of myself. I'm still getting my fitness in. You know what? You probably also don't always feel like working out, but you're still doing it. It's part of what you do. So I wanna share it. First of all, I wanna show people like, hey, I'm also doing this thing just like you. I also want you... go through hard times, because I mean, I am putting people through muscle gain and fat loss phases and those kinds of things. So it's also a being able to relate because you've been there, right? Kind of thing. Hmm. And it's also part of me pushing my body in a way to points where I haven't been yet. So I talked to, I did my check-in yesterday. I told my coach, okay, look, I've never had this much muscle at this low body fat percentage. Right. And it's not that I have to reach that goal. I don't. I have enough muscle, right? I'm lean enough. I could go to maintenance, be happy. But it's also a little bit about challenging yourself. And I think, to kind of wrap this one up, I think we should do hard things to show that our mind is in charge and not those little, you know, right? Not the cravings, not the hunger and those kinds of things. This is not self-punishment or whatever it is, you know what I mean? But it's something that I truly believe in. For a lot of people, it's the ice bath stuff, you know? That's a very relatively easy thing to do. Like you jump in the cold water, it's something. you inherently don't want to do. But because you do it anyway, it builds that resilience. It builds that character and you can deal with uncomfortable situations more. Makes sense. And from here, right, I talked to my coach. This kind of goes into just investing yourself long time. We had a call, I was like, hey, you know, let's do this for a year. Let's turn this into like a year long project so that we have a lot of time. because I want to get lean and then built from there. Make sense? It definitely makes sense and I think it's nice to hear with your own words because I think people from outside when they follow a journey like that they immediately jump to the conclusion like, oh poor you, you have to punish yourself to feel a certain way, you don't have to do this to be good enough or at least that was the feedback I got from some people because they're like transferring their opinion about doing something like that over to me. So I would say... ish the same thing as you as I've also done. It's about doing the hard things. It's about practicing what you preach. And of course, investigating how far can I go? How does it feel? So that when you talk to clients about it, you know you've been there. You're not just telling them what to do. You've done it yourself. So yeah, I'm supporting the journey. Although I think you look awesome now and you're gonna look awesome in a month or two. It's really not about the look either. It's just about, as you're saying. challenging yourself and seeing what you can do. Yeah. And you know what? There's also not even something wrong with wanting to look a certain way either. Going, going back to your point too, like people, people are allowed to have those opinions. Of course, I will say this in 2024, people love having an opinion about just about everything. And you don't have to have that opinion, right? You don't have to, you don't have to agree either. But if I see something and Trust me, I have to remind myself about this all the time. When I see people walking around in the gym with a tripod and you know, like people making, doing certain movements at the gym and it looks kind of funny. And then of course, sometimes you have that thought, it looks kind of funny, right? And you automatically think about those, like the gym feel videos, whatever it is. But then again, it's like, well, I don't really have to have an opinion about that, right? That person either... is maybe just beginning or they just don't know how to do it. Or with the tripod stuff, I see a lot of kids doing it now and they're teens and twenties. It's like, well, okay, yeah, they're young. I definitely did a lot of cringey stuff when I was a kid. I kind of get it, you know? Are you talking about people walking around with the tribe of the film themselves training? Yes, in like a public gym. Uh, but like, yeah, but it. and you should be one of them as well. That's also even one of the thoughts I had get as well. Cause sometimes I do also think, okay, well maybe just recording it to share their journey and maybe it's content. But sometimes it's also like just very like, you know, in the middle of a public gym. But anyway, like my point was like, I don't have to have an opinion about that, right? I can have the thoughts, but that's okay. I see stuff online all the time and there's like these battles going back and forth and it's like sure you know there's a lot of shit out there and we'll do a podcast about this too but on the other hand like when I see things when I see other coaches maybe say certain things that I don't fully agree with or right I'm also like well hey they're just in their journey and whether they want to do this or that like actually doesn't really matter that much. So going back to the people commenting on your stuff, it's like, I do get it, sure, right? That's what people do. But you don't have to have that opinion. It's your journey. yeah, let people be people and about tripod I actually I quench when I do it when I like bring out the tripod that's only when there's No people in gym almost I would rather like use my shoe for a tripod that actually works very well Or just putting it in super weird places, so I don't have to like carry the tripod, but who cares? That's my thing. Um So I wanted to ask you about a question that I know that a lot of people are wondering and it's maybe like something 50 to 80-90% of the people in gyms want. You want to lose fat and gain muscle, preferably at the same time. So that's what I wanted to ask you. Is it possible? And we're also going to then talk about like periodization and how you can do it in a good But first of all, is it possible to build muscle and lose fat at the same time? Yes. At the same time, yes. Not at the same rate. So that of course is a difference, right? a crazy sound outside. I don't know what that is a car or something. car alarm maybe. Anyway, sorry, distraction. It's possible, but not to the extent most people will want it to look like, I feel like. I've built quite a bit of muscle in this Fentless face, to be honest with you. And that's me, like I've done it for a long time, you know, it is possible. But I always tell people like it's not to be expected. There's a few exceptions here. when you start to make drastic changes to your nutrition in general and your training, especially if it's a combination of, Hey, you're new to weightlifting or kind of new in terms of like, you haven't done it much recently, or you have maybe just focused on cardio, whatever it is. explosion in tunnel. Shit. There's a lot going on outside. I'm not sure if you can hear it, but the doom construction in the tunnel, which is like basically under where we live. And there's like dynamite going off sometimes. hearing some kind of a beeping sound but that just that it's yeah it's our training in like focusing on what's important so we're just listening to you it's no problem My bad. I'm just getting distracted. That's my curse. But okay, so it's gone. I can focus here. So fully focused. It is possible. When it comes to, you know, you being new to training, you start lifting weights, especially if that's combined with like now you're starting to actually eat enough. Now you're starting to eat enough protein. You can actually see quite a bit of what's called body recomposition. That's a magic word people want to chase these days, right? It's body recomposition. It's possible it's not gonna last that long. And over time it's gonna become more and more and more difficult to a point where it's gonna go so slow that you're probably not gonna stick to it long enough. And that's one downside to it. It's still gonna be possible. And I do, I still think so. But in most cases, you're going to be better off chasing those separate goals separately because a cataract surplus, which is optimal, right? We're talking optimal here for muscle growth. And we're looking at fat loss, you know, like a deficit is, I mean, not even optimal is required for fat loss. Those are opposites. So that's kind of like those conflicting goals we talk about in the article. We talked about this off air as well. I had to clear this with Pia real quick because I don't fully like talking about steroids and stuff, but because I don't support it in terms of people will listen to a podcast and think, oh, this sounds kind of great. Not knowing that it's gonna mess up their hormones for life, right? There are people who really take it too far and now they're messed up. And that's not just muscle gain related. Like it's your full, like all the systems in your body, right? So... Don't jump on those kind of things anyway, but that's also why I don't necessarily support it. Again, if people want to do it, that's great. But I never recommend anyone obviously, right? That's not what we're here for. I want to support health. Okay, we do have to acknowledge that there are a lot of people with big followings who are on steroids. A lot of fitness influencers, a lot of models, right? A lot of the people who are really jacked, whether they... share that or not. Some people are open about it. Cool. That's cool. But then even then their followers might still not know. Other people lie about it, which is the only thing I do think is wrong. Like it's cool to do it. If that's really what you want to do, fine. But then be honest about it. And of course there are genetic freaks, let's call them, who are just lucky and they have to write genes, sorry, genetics. And yeah, you know, they do get jacked more than other people. They can stay lean or whatever it is. But it is a very real thing, especially in Hollywood actors as well. People playing roles like Wolverine and action figures. There's a lot of stuff going on. It's not natural. Can I just ask you one thing? Because when I hear steroids, I think about the jack guy in some movie. I always think about the guys. And what's new for me is that there's women as well doing it, and not just jack bodybuilders, but also the fitzpoh, bikini, body influencers. So you can use anabolic steroids to achieve that kind of physique as well. Have I understood it right? Yeah, so I'm definitely not like very versed in that stuff. I know a lot of people who are. Um, but yeah, I mean, yes. Um, for example, that. We're not here to inspire someone. I just want to mention it because As a woman you think it's not something women do but look at that girl She looks amazing without even thinking about or considering the possibility that she's taken something So that's why I'm just saying it A lot of them who look like really like they have a lot of muscle like you know It's it's likely right? I can't make those claims But you can usually tell and For example testosterone like that's a hormone that also women have it's also important for women right? It's that it's a balance just how men also have estrogen But okay, let's continue because we obviously want to do things naturally here That's the goal is it possible. Yes I've been in a fat loss phase. Give you a little bit of background. Like last year, I took my training down to three times a week, very like maintenance level. I didn't really do a lot of bulking, cutting, whatever. I kind of just kind of chilled, you know? My kind of my, you know, my fitness kind of went down a bit, let's say, because I want to focus on work. Now I'm fully like back on, you know, the train, the train again, basically. And... For me, going into this new program with my new coach, I did go from maybe three times a week where I didn't really push and it wasn't very consistent to five times a week. These are also sessions with high volume, one and a half, two hours sometimes. I did tell them like the two hours is a little bit long for me currently with my schedule, but usually it's an hour and a half, is a big one already. It's a lot more volume. I've really been pushing way more. And that's a big one too. I think sometimes we think we're trying to, right? We're almost at our last rep, but what's really kind of training close to failure, a lot of people are not really getting there, including myself in the past, right? I've been pushing way more. Why is that? I have to coach. This is something people sometimes don't see, but it's like, because you are invested, because you are spending money, You have skin in the game, basically, right? Because of that, you do the work. And that's a big part of coaching that's actually not often talked about. It's like you have to show up, obviously, because you are invested. So you do the program, right? You stick to your macros. I've been spot on with my stuff. Now, also, what else? I went from 200 to 240 grams of protein per day. Also there. a relatively big change. And through that, you can potentially achieve some additional body recomposition, maybe, maybe something to try again, it's probably going to be best with a coach. But if you want to ramp it up your protein intake, see if it makes a difference. And I've been at that 240. So it's been good, you know, and I do really see a difference because my weight hasn't gone down that much. I also just had like a three week plateau where I just stayed the same for three weeks in a row. This goes back to when people get impatient after two days of not seeing the skill going down, it's like, no, I hit a plateau. Like, no, you didn't. You're just impatient, right? You're just impatient. You're just too focused on the skill. Are you weighing your food? Are you tracking? If yes, okay, cool. Keep doing that for two, three weeks and then we'll talk, you know? I also, and this is my last point, added cardio. I always tell people like, hey, let's not do cardio necessarily for fat loss, but you do burn extra calories, right? Let's be honest. So it was a method of, hey, I'm hitting my nutrition, training five times a week, you know, weightlifting for that muscle gain and muscle maintenance. I hit 10,000 steps per day. And now I'm also doing... Right. And since last week is it's five times I do five times 30 minutes, low intensity cardio per week. It was three. Now it's five. I'm also at the very end. Now here's one thing I will say, you and me, we do fitness is what we do. You know, um, I'm still working when I do my cardio, right? I walked to the gym, which is my little quick break. Then when I'm on the treadmill, like, I do my emails, I do my DMS and stuff. Right. So I'm still working. Then I go back and continue work. So it's part of my work day. And I have to say that because when people hear this and it's like, okay, I got to do this cardio and this and this and this, it is a lot to keep up with. I'm able to do that currently, but it's also the privilege of having your own job. Right. And being able to do squeeze that in, save for you, you could go downstairs. You get that work out in, you know, but it's part of what we do. Yeah, it definitely makes it a lot easier. So if I'm understanding you correctly, like as a beginner or you're just starting, for example, a strength program like my members in the Sterkere, I have new ones coming in and all the information about nutrition can seem a bit like overwhelming. And it shouldn't be, especially when we know that you can do a lot of good stuff with just doing the things you just mentioned. So to like... really take advantage of this possibility as a beginner to build muscle and lose fat at the same time. You can do your strength workouts and like really push almost a failure like on and not on every workout but like really make sure that you're putting in the hard work when you're strength training and also hit your protein requirements with your nutrition. Really be mindful about that. and also of course your nutrition in general, like eat good food. And also try to do movement, not necessarily cardio, but I think that both you and me could recommend like about ish 10,000 steps a day, that's a good goal and for some that includes walking on a treadmill, for some it includes a group class or it can just be walking home for work or just walking at work, you know. But would you say that if you do that for example like a period of three to six months, you should start with that before you consider anything more drastic? It's a big, it depends question. The only real answer is I can't see because I don't know the individual context. But I'll give some general answers. But this is one thing that's wrong on social media as well. And we talked about this off air. It's like, there's a lot of things that are like, this is the way, you know, without taking into consideration like the actual individual, the person. But okay. I think with all the stuff that you just mentioned. I think if we do that consistently, and remember like in your article series two, the very first one, when we talk about building meals and stuff, or one of the first, when we talk about building meals, when we have those easy steps, and you actually do that for most of your meals, most of your whole foods, quarter of your plate protein, those kinds of things, even without tracking, I really think that if you're a beginner, you go, excuse me, if you're a beginner, you go into that, And you do that consistently for a couple of months. I can almost guarantee, because I can't, because I'm not there, but I can almost guarantee that you will see a lot of good results. If you do your workouts, right, you hit a good amount of steps, but you also don't expect quick results and you just focus on the process more than anything. So yes, I do think you can make a big difference there with the basics. Now going into specific. muscle gain and fat loss and doing it, it's called optimally, that would require dedicated fat loss and muscle gain phases. This is where we need to look at the individual. Do they just wanna look a little leaner and more toned, whatever you wanna call it? Okay, cool. Do they wanna lose 10, 20 kilos? That's a different story, right? Or maybe, hey, like they're kind of skinny, they actually have to put on some weight. Okay, three different journeys there, you know? So it's a big, it depends question in general though, like I just said earlier, like you do wanna have targeted muscle gain and fat loss phases if you wanna get the optimal results. to where, hey, it is going to be worth it going into that. Now, when you're going to do that and for how long, I can't necessarily say, I will say this, it's likely a good idea to be a maintenance for a little bit. Just get consistent first. Just work on your habits and get that in a good place. Don't rush it. And then if you go into fat loss, maybe do, I don't know. Let's call it like... Two on the very short end, maybe like four on the kind of maximum kind of end of months, right? So two to four months of fat loss. Maybe do a month of reverse dieting or a little bit longer if you're good with your tracking. If you wanna do muscle gain, I don't really recommend much shorter than three or four months, like ideally four plus. It just depends. Where like muscle gain is gonna take a lot of time. fat loss you could go a little faster. You are gonna see more weight loss in a short period of time compared to the weight gain you wanna see during muscle gain. But at least a, like, let's, to put one number, I know this is very vague, to put one number on just about every phase, ideally, like at least a full month, but that's on the very short end. Maybe. two, three, four for most. And that's again, on the very short end. As a maximum, let's maybe say four, five. Yeah, and I feel like the biggest one both for me and the members that have read your articles It's it's the maintenance part like learning how much food you need how much protein you need and they really like getting used to that level of food and energy and like setting a new normal because you need that to be able to go into both the maintenance phase and like cutting phase because you have to have like If you're really low on calories and that's how you live your life, you haven't got anything to cut from because you're so low already. The maintenance part was big for me. I think I've already shared that. I'm seeing with my members, that's mostly women, how surprised they get at how little food they eat and how low they are on protein, which is not optimal when we want to build strength and muscle. Yeah. Which in a way, of course, it's not like objectively, it's not like nice to be there. But in a way, it's kind of good because if you're coming from that and you go to eating enough and you then increase your protein and you start lifting weights, then you are likely to see a good amount of results in a short time, you know, relatively short time. But just focus on those basics. And it's the answer people don't want to hear, you know. Yeah, and when we started working together, I remember that in the first weeks, maybe months, when we upped my calories, we upped my carbs, that was when I felt my best, because I looked more athletic, my muscles were fuller. So I would have just been happy just doing that for a while as well, because, I don't know, it didn't take a lot of time before I felt better and looked better. And I think a lot of people have... that good experience when they start following your guidelines that we also mentioned in the app. Because they need the extra fuel. So don't think that you have to go to the extremes with the different phases if that sounds a bit like too much. A lot can happen if you just find your maintenance and dare to eat more food, at least for the people that I work with. Yeah, definitely. Because maintenance is such an undervalued season, let's call it. And it's really just eating enough. But it's, you know, when you hear people, they say, oh, it's my hormones, or my metabolism's slow. Well, it's not inherently slow, it's just adapted, right? And sure, your hormones might be out of whack, but why is that? Your hormones are not the cause. Like, it's the symptom. Right. It's the effect of your lifestyle, of your habits, your nutrition. Guess what happens when you actually finally start to eat enough. When you bring that protein up and you just eat healthy, mostly whole foods, you lift your weights, like those kinds of things. Right. Cause like I said, the metabolism adapts, but also on the way up. So I don't like using the word like fixing, but like you can reverse that, right? You can go back to where it's supposed to be. Now, depending on if you're really coming from chronic dieting, it might take a lot of steps in, you know, months. Or if you're just coming from a little bit below, you can jump back to there. But like, just spend some time there. I know this is like, we want to talk about like muscle gain and fat loss. But I really think there's a lot of value in being there, like eating enough, doing that most of the time. Yeah, I remember you reminding me of that when we worked together because I've read somewhere that maintenance is not the place you want to spend a lot of time because nothing is happening. So I was like, I don't need to do that. But you reminded me of the importance of making it your new normal. So if you're in the other end of the spectrum, maybe you've lost a lot of weight. It takes time to get used to the fact that you're no longer on a diet. So you don't have that kind of drive and motivation, but you have to get used to living your new normal. And that is probably if you've done a big weight loss phase, it's less food than you're maybe used to. And if you're not really paying attention to the maintenance, your new maintenance, I can imagine that it's really easy to go back to your normal habits of, I don't know, eating the bag of chips on a Saturday evening. not moving as much in your everyday life just because that's how you normally operate. And when you're done with the face you're going back to the old you. So that's why I think the maintenance part is really big both after weight loss but also after gain, before cuts, you know the drill. Maintenance is where we want to live our lives and that's where we really have to strengthen our routines and habits. Yeah, because it's one of those where we need to understand where the person is at in their lives, what kind of life they live with their jobs and they're busy, maybe they have kids. And I do understand because the person you talked about, they're coming at it from, hey, what is optimal? Like, how do we build as much muscle as possible and stay as lean as possible? Yes, that is true. You go from a cut right into gaining. Right? because they see it as time lost because any second not spent in a Caterer Surplus, you're missing out on gains basically. Sure, that's true. If we're looking at absolutely just getting as jacked as possible, but what about like, let's call it the everyday person, the normal person who does have the job, right? Should they really be always cutting, always bulking? Or should we just also kind of be like here? just eating enough, nourishing the body, just feeling good. And especially knowing that so many people, a lot of women especially, are coming from years, decades sometimes of dieting. Isn't it healthy even just from a mindset standpoint to say, hey, we're not dieting for a little while, like, you know, so important. I agree. Alrighty. What do you think? Want to wrap it up for today? Yeah, I think so. Hopefully we answered the question that I asked you when we started. And I mean, it's not a yes or no answer, of course, but our goal is that people just like understand these kind of topics better so that they can take the best decisions for themselves. Absolutely. Yeah. So it's possible. Maybe don't expect it. Right. It's just a nice bonus if it happens. It wasn't my goal to build muscle during this fat loss phase. I did. Hey nice. It's a nice bonus. It also makes it okay that my weight loss has been going pretty slow. Right. But then again, the focus is fat loss and then after the focus is building. In the beginning though, just focus on maintenance. I get consistent first and once you've proven yourself, you can do that. Like then, then start to look at those next phases, you know. Yeah, agreed. Do you have any other updates coming up on your end? Not really, just doing my thing, coaching the people in the, in Sterkere and Trent, and yeah, trying to get as good workouts in as I can. Happy about that. I'm just, right now, I'm like in week 24-ish of my pregnancy, and I'm, every time I just manage to go and lift something heavy and hit my like activity goals during the day, I'm very satisfied. Love that. Awesome. So Pia, stay healthy, stay active. I'll make sure to link yourself in the show notes to our listener. Of course, we will be back. I'm sure Pia is gonna be back sometime soon. We'll see when, but for now, I'll talk to you next episode. Yeah.