What is up and welcome back to Talking Nutrition. I'm your host, Johan Vesters. And you heard me say this last time I brought a friend on the podcast. It's my absolute favorite thing to do, to talk to my peers, dive into their journeys, but also the topics they specialize in. And just get a different perspective also on certain things, right? I always learn something new and I hope you will as well. So today we are joined by my friend, Caitlin Jones. Caitlin is a functional nutritionist who spent the last few years going deep into blood work, blood sugar regulation, and reversing pre and type two diabetes. Going on four years ago, Caitlin was diagnosed pre-diabetic. Not because she was sitting on the couch all the time and eating, she was actually powerlifting. She was hitting her macros to a T and her fasting blood sugar just kept rising and it ended up being in the 140s. She turned it around with the basics and that is exactly how she helps her clients today. In this episode, you're gonna learn about her journey. We're gonna talk about those CGM and oatmeal kind of posts that you see on social media when people show you, hey, my blood sugar rises after eating oatmeal. Why the protein craze has a lot of women under eating carbs actually. Blood sugar 101 in just plain English, I think that's gonna be the biggest part for you to understand because I think this whole blood sugar conversation online just gets taken out of context and it becomes very confusing with you feeling like, okay, so what do I do about it? Caitlin also shares how she actually reversed her pre-diabetes, her honest take on using low-dose GLP-1 as a tool, and why people on GLPs who skip the basics tend to gain it all back. I really love this episode. Let's dive right in. And then, of course, make sure to drop us a quick rating and or review on Spotify, Apple, wherever you're listening to the podcast to help us grow the show. And most importantly, enjoy the episode. What's up, Caitlin? How are you? Hello. How are you? I'm so excited to be here. I'm excited for you to be here. When was the last time we got to hang out? When was that? In Nashville, I think, right? In Nashville about, yeah, over a year ago, which is crazy. And then I get to see you two weeks now. Yep. So we're both going to Sam Miller's event. It's been a while for sure. So it's also kind of catching up for me both, you know? But we've been talking about doing a podcast for a minute, right? Because last time didn't work out for so many years. And then our time zones just never match up. Yeah, because it's like a nine-hour difference right now. Yeah. Yeah, so it's 10 a.m. where you're at, and it is 7 p.m. where I'm at. So we made it work, though. We're here. It's good to see you again. Good to see you. So I wanted to bring Caitlin on to talk about blood sugars, because that's something we haven't discussed yet on this podcast. It is something that I think is widely misunderstood for a lot of people. There's a lot of fear-mongering around it, too. But obviously, it is a very important thing, you know? Like, we want to be insulin sensitive, and, you know, we do want to have stable blood sugar levels and all that. I do think that it's, again, the fear-mongering. Like, people just take everything out of proportion, and it's pretty straightforward how to handle it for most people, right? But it becomes difficult and confusing because of social media in a lot of cases. Yeah. Marketing definitely kind of runs away with things, and I've started following a lot of pre-diabetes and type 2 diabetes Facebook groups. And just, I have stopped answering questions because I just get attacked at how it's not that simple. And it's like, but it kind of can be to an extent. And there's always an asterisk with everything in the nutrition world. But blood sugar is one of those weird ones where, one, people take it personally, that like, oh, you're attacking the way that I've been eating. And it's like, this is a judgment-free zone. I don't care if you came to me eating nothing but donuts. Like, I do not care. All I want to do is help you. And then they take it to the next level of the extreme, where you have to cut out every single sugar you've ever eaten, and then only do, like, carnivore or keto. And it's like, well, we don't need to overcorrect now. Like, there is a happy medium. We just have to find what that is for you and your blood sugar levels. And again, because I actually wanted to start with just talking about you. But, like, real quick, though, the whole, you must have seen these posts, too. Like, the post of measuring your blood sugar, or they have, like, a CGM, and then they have, like, a bowl of oatmeal. And then it's like, oh, look, like, how much it spikes my blood sugar. I'm like, that's fucking normal. That should happen. And in most cases, people are not eating carbs just like that. Like, just only the carbs. You know, like, no one eats white rice by itself. You know what I mean? Like, with a protein, with some fiber, with some fats, like, that's a whole different story. And people just completely just ignore that. So, they have no idea what they're talking about. Right. Which is something that just annoys me, like, so much. Well, and they're, yeah, they're taking one little aspect of it, villainizing it, and then saying, see, this is what happens. And it's like, it's not that serious, dude. Oh, like, that's what a healthy body is supposed to do. You know, it's supposed to go up. But it's supposed to go down as well. Right. But let's start with you, obviously, because my audience has no idea who you are. I do, but they don't. So, tell us a little bit about you, and what do you do, and then we'll take you from there. Nice. So, I am a functional nutritionist. I have spent the last 10 years training people, working on nutrition, and then finally, in the last three, getting more into the nitty-gritty blood work, kind of specifying in blood sugar regulation, insulin sensitivity, reversing pre- and type 2 diabetes, and kind of living in that world a little bit. And then also, on the other end, of kind of keeping people outside for as long as possible. And because I'm a big skier, mountain biker, I live right outside of Tahoe. So, that plays a huge role in my company, as well as there's some sort of outdoor aspect to it, usually. Yeah. I like that. It's something I'm pretty big on with my clients, too, getting outside in Asia and staying active. And at the end of the day, that's the stuff we want to do, right? Like, just whether it's out in the mountains or skiing or whatever people like, water sports, or like, you want to be able to do that stuff when you're old still. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. And there's so much we can do from, like, a preventative standpoint, which, for some reason, we kind of, like, are not taught. You know what I mean? It's like, you just kind of do whatever you want, and then once you get sick, we'll give you medication. But, like, no, it's actually a rest of the lifestyle. Yeah. So, you can keep doing the fun stuff, right? Like, going outside in nature. Like, it's so cool. You know, that's why I'm still in Norway. So, yeah. But with you, you know, because you're kind of focusing a lot on the blood sugars and the pre-diabetic and diabetes, is that something that you had to deal with yourself, or what's, like, the main reason you're interested in that topic? Yeah. So, three - wow, going on four years ago, I was diagnosed pre-diabetic, and then I had a fasting blood sugar of, like - it was in the 140s at one point. And I was on the other end of it where I was powerlifting at the time and just trying to get as strong as possible. And with that comes eating all of the food. And I gained a bunch of weight, and I - looking back on it, it's like, oh, now I love the coach that I worked with. He was fantastic. He knows a lot more now. But it was too much food too quickly without a lot of, like, specificity in, like, what carbs I should be eating. So, without, like, not necessarily knowing better, because I was a coach at the time too, but, like, you just got to get in on carbs, and it's like, well, carbs are carbs. And to some extent, they are. But when you're mainlining, like, Swedish fish to a workout, like, something's a little bit wrong there. When instead, you can do it other ways. Yeah, more like, if it fits your macros, then, hey, yes, you know, feel free to be flexible, but let's actually have some whole foods here. Yeah. Well, and it changed the way that I talk to my clients about things, because if it fits your macros was so prevalent in a lot of our lives, and is probably why we do a lot of what I do, yeah. Yeah. And you get placed with this number of, like, my highest carb amount was 370 grams of carbs, and I see that, and it's like, well, I can eat whatever I want, because it doesn't matter. And then you're starting to also get into, like, density versus volume foods on, like, well, I'm not going to get there eating vegetables and potatoes. And it's like, well, you do need to throw some of that in, but then you get into the gray area of just, like, oh, I'm going to eat more of that, and not having the wherewithal to kind of, like, stop at some point and think, like, hey, this isn't right. But that leads into, like, we'll talk about it later, of, like, what are the signs and symptoms that you feel, and what are the red flags that come up? Because it's, like I said, with my clients, I reintroduce carbs and introduce carbs in such a way that it's very slow, methodical, and then it adds on to what they're already eating. So getting most of it from whole-ish foods, and then going from there, and then utilizing, like, more dense fruits, veggies, carb sources, even sugar sources, but in a different way, and in a more balanced way that helps their insulin sensitivity and reaction to whatever they're eating. Yeah. I was really, I was pretty big on the flexible dieting side of things, and I still am, right? Now, I used to mostly, say, 80-20. I like a little bit more of a 90-10, depending on what season we're in, because let's be honest, for a fat loss, if you can do 90% of calories from whole foods, it's going to be better. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. But 80-20, 90-10, whatever, it's also just a mindset thing of it doesn't have to be perfect all the time. But I've really kind of purposely not been talking about it as much anymore, because, and I do think that in my early coaching years, I might have not communicated it good enough, but people hear flexible dieting, and they only hear the word flexible. Right. And that is also not what I try to back then also teach in my early years. Like, that's never been the main thing where, hey, here's your macros, do whatever the hell you want to do. Like, no, we've always led with whole foods. But again, people hear that word, that term flexible dieting, and it's like, well, I can have whatever. Like, it is if it's fit your macros. And that's where I do think it's a slippery slope, because you said also, yes, you had to eat quite a bit for your powerlifting and to put on muscle, but you said that we're going too fast. And I think that's a big mistake people do, like when they increase food, right? Yeah, we increased. So I guess I'll touch on it now of like, some red flags that I was feeling, because I have now learned that you start to feel when you're not eating enough and training a bunch, you feel tired, you have trouble sleeping, you're not recovering as well. The same thing also happens when you're eating too much. You get tired because your body's having to digest so much stuff at once, and then your training suffers, and then you're tired all the time. And it's like, where's that happy medium of, I was getting to the point of like, I wasn't allowing enough time in between meals or snacks to digest, and that was leading me to feel tired all the time. And then now that I know that like, oh, these were actually some blood sugar red flags later, but it was not allowing proper time for digestion. And so I was getting to my training sessions and being like, I'm just not feeling great. And then on the other side, my coach was like, cool, let's bump up carbs. But he would do like 20 to 30 gram jumps. And it's like, well, that's like, not quite a meal, but like, that's approaching meal status. And it was getting to be a lot when I was powerlifting training for an hour, four to five days a week. And so I like, the output was not matching the input at all. And then I ended up gaining weight. And there was a cascade effect of that. But yeah, it was just not attainable. It was way too fast. And so now I approach it with my clients, like, we do little bumps, make sure that you can handle it little bumps. And it's like, some people can handle bigger ones. But most often, it's, there's also a mental aspect to it as well of women. And then some men start to see these bigger numbers. And it's like, whoa, I can't eat that. And it's like, well, you can, but that's okay. We'll, we'll ease into it. And yeah. That's something I'm not sure if you, if your clients are similar coming in to mine, even just getting, I don't love generalizing, but especially women. I do see this more often. I coach mostly women at the point, even just getting people to maintenance and hey, like even getting them over 200 carbs, you know? Yeah. And it's like, oh, this is so much food, you know? Like, it's, it's actually a difficult thing for a lot of people. Do you see that as well, where a lot of people are coming in way under eating those carbs? Yeah. Yeah. And they, what's funny is now the protein craze is huge. And so they come in eating way more protein than they ever need. And then they're under eating their carbs and then they don't feel great. And it's like, but they're eating enough. And they're like, but I'm hitting all my protein and then some. And it's like, well, I'm about to rock your world. Cause we're going to switch all of that around and usually lower protein by a ton. And then, cause they're also getting it in fortified foods where it's protein oatmeal and protein chips and protein, like powders and drinks, which protein powders are the one thing that I'll keep. But everything else is just kind of nuts at this point. Yeah. It gets to a point where it's like, and it's, it's just marketing. We've seen this before. We've seen it with low fat. We've seen it with, you know, like no sugar. And like. Pick a decade and there's something. You know, like I think the next one is going to be fiber. I think that's a pretty good chance of, of being the next one, but it's just going to go in cycles and then, you know, I do feel like the keto side of things recently or, you know, last few years really kind of picked up again. And then also kind of the more extreme with the carnivore, like the biggest thing that I had to learn, I guess, myself, also having been like vegan in the past and veggie and like going through these, like trying these different diets. It's like, like you said in the beginning, it's like, there's usually a middle ground and that's usually just where the actual results happen and where you are going to be feeling best and you're going to be at your healthiest. But it's also the most boring stuff to talk about because it doesn't market well. No, it doesn't. You know, to say like, Hey, you know, just eat fruits and vegetables and eat a couple of times a day and then have some whole food proteins. And that's kind of it. And you hit your steps and you lift weights a couple of times a week, three to five times. You sleep enough and that's pretty much it for the most part. Yeah. And people look at me like I have three heads and they're like, it can't be. And it's like, no, it is. Yeah, definitely. And obviously you were already lifting at that time too when you were actually pushing training. And, you know, it just also kind of shows like, Hey, even then there's, I feel like it's, it goes both ways. It's like either people train really hard and under eat and they don't look like they work out because they're always running on, you know, suboptimal calories and not enough protein and everything. But then I also have seen people push it too far where, Hey, I'm so active. I can train or sorry, I can eat whatever. And then they kind of push it too hard. And that's when they just gained a bunch of body fat and not more muscle because that's a big one for muscle growth. Like it needs to be step-by-step, even just how you already take it step-by-step with the carbs, you know? So what's maybe like the biggest thing that you wish someone had told you sooner around that time? You don't have to eat all of the things. And that's where I just wish there would have been more structure to it. And also like once I got to the pre-diabetic point, it's, it's scary because then it's marketed as the next step of like, Oh, you're going to get type two diabetes, which also not the end of the world. It just makes your life more complicated. It's also, you can put it in remission and it just kind of, it can be okay. But there's, there's a way to do things. Cause I grew up in a very, my parents are both athletes. My dad was a professional mountain bike racer. Like I grew up in a household where it was like extremely balanced, like protein, carb, veggie every single night. And then on the off chance of like still being a kid, like you have the fun foods of tuna noodle casserole and stew and different pasta dishes and stuff like that. But it was still like up until I was 18 and went away to college, it was very balanced and very kind of middle of the road. A lot of people would see that as extreme now, but my parents and I, like, we still eat the same way now. When I first gained my little bit of independence, going to college, being a collegiate athlete, I played soccer. And then having a little bit of freedom with what I ate and then all of a sudden going crazy. Cause it's like, I'm training, I can do enough. And that whole thing, I wish someone would have just debunked in front of my face and like, Hey, you actually can't. Cause the lie that every mom and friend of your mom's told you was like, well, you're little, enjoy it while you can. Cause you can eat whatever you want. And then that sticks in your brain until you're 17, 18, 19. And it's like, no, I can't. Even if I'm a kid, I still can't. Like, so that, that whole lie of like, you can eat whatever you want as long as you exercise. And it's like, it's not that, it is not quite that easy. True. It helps to have muscle and be active, but you can't get away with everything. Something you just said now that really made me think, because you're like, if you explained to me, like the way you guys were eating back then, sounds like a balanced, healthy diet. Yep. And you said, you know, some people might find that extreme, but I think that's a problem. Because it's not. My parents are creatures of habit. And so it was a lot of the same things all the time. Yeah. Okay. But. Yeah. Like just the way you structure the meals and with the fruits and vegetables and the whole foods. That's not extreme. No. And people act like this is like this big extreme thing to, to make kids eat like this. But it, I don't think so. At least personally, like it literally makes your kid smarter, stronger, grow up, healthier, not fucking overweight. Cause that's something I really struggle with. Like seeing overweight kids. It hurts. That hurts because they start, even if they just go into their teens, like that is not good for the kid. Even if it comes from a, like a confidence standpoint, like a, you know what I mean? Like it's, it's not a good thing. And that's where these days I feel like, unfortunately it's really difficult to have conversations with people about these kinds of topics because they'll either take it personal, right? Cause let's just keep it objective. That's what I'm trying to say. You know what I mean? It's not good for a kid to grow up like that. No. I think it's extreme to be like. Hormotally it's not. Hormotally. Yeah. It's just, that's exactly, like that's how you grow up unhealthy. Yeah. And it's, it's, um, I could go on a rant here, but I'm not going to, I think it's more extreme. I'm going to say things that people won't like. Yep. I'll just say this when I think it's more extreme to say, well, because my kid's still young, I can give him all the sugar every single day and all this. And like that objectively makes him unhealthy and objectively doesn't teach him or her the fundamentals, the basic habits that you can take into when you grow up that are just those basics that we all have to practice. There's no way around it. We all need fruits and vegetables. We all need some carbs, whole food carbs. We all need healthy fats. We all need protein. We need to get our micronutrients in. If you can teach that to a kid, like, isn't that like the best shit you can teach? You know what I mean? From like a young age on just so at least you've had that experience. Now, mind you, obviously you went into, right, living on your own and then just kind of like going the other direction. And I also kind of had a similar experience of at some point, you know, you just kind of start eating like crap. And that's when I got overweight myself. But still, I do still think it's a very important thing from a childhood standpoint of at least teaching some of those basics, hoping that they will stick. Yeah. Because it doesn't have to be extreme. It could just be like, hey, we're eating this to be strong. We're eating this to give you energy because it's going to make you feel good. You know, why is that extreme? You know what I mean? It's just whole foods. It's good for you. Yeah. There was one rule my parents instilled in me really young because they watched. We would go to soccer tournaments and we would go out to dinner as a team. And every single girl would order kind of a full sugar, lemonade, soda, whatever drink beforehand, not finish their meal and then also get dessert. And so they filled up on the sugary drink first. And so my parents had a rule of you. They also knew me very well, but they were like, you could have a soda or a drink or ice cream. You cannot have both. And also the portion sizes of the early 2000s are very different than they are now, where the sodas were still 20 ounces, the big plastic cups. But then the ice cream scoops were this big. So I was always, always going to choose ice cream. It's my favorite dessert. That was they knew me, but I ate my entire meal and I was the only girl pretty much on the team that would do so. And then I'd have a tiny little scoop of ice cream because it was a restaurant. So they would have singular scoops and that would be done. And that's great. Yeah. So I, I, they created balance without having to say it. They just knew what I would go towards. And I know, absolutely. And I think that's, that's really, that's, that's just a great way to go about it, you know? And those are little things that we should all be better with. I think just as a society when it comes to teaching kids. Same goes for just managing your money and those little things, you know, like stuff that people kind of just don't. Even just that, like, hey, you can have some, but you got to choose, right? Because that's how, when you grow up, that's how the world's going to work too. So, you know, like those, those are very important things. So that's actually really cool to hear. So now let's, let's talk a little bit more about the actual blood sugar side of things. Because I think it's still a very confusing thing for a lot of people, right? So for someone who's never really thought about blood sugar, like they've kind of heard it and maybe on social media, but like they don't really know what it's actually doing in the body on a day to day basis. Can you kind of briefly explain what it does? Yeah. So your blood sugar is built to be pretty stable. And as you eat, and it also doesn't matter what you eat or what balance, you will have rise and falls. It should go back to that maintenance place. I think the nuance of it and what people don't quite understand is how many factors affect your blood sugar to elevate it even just a little bit. And so for us as adults who have jobs and stressors in life, your fasted blood sugar might be elevated just from a little bit of stress. And then so you're started at an elevated state. And then you go kind of from that line of where in an ideal body, your blood sugar should some be somewhere between like 70, 85. And then past that, it starts getting up a little bit higher. The Western medicine range is 80 to 100. And I think that's a little too high for most people. But as you eat, your blood sugar increases, insulin is produced, brings back down that spike, and then it brings you back to your maintenance and your middle level. If you start eating in a way that you're eating, just call it unbalanced for now, so mostly carbohydrates, and you have a massive, massive spike to where your insulin can't keep up, your blood sugar will eventually go down, but it's gonna stay, so if your mid-level was here, or your base level was here, it's now up here. Because it's not able to get back down quite as much as it was. Then you eat again, mostly carbs, it gets elevated, and kind of so on and so forth, it keeps climbing up because your insulin cannot bring it back down. Or you do not produce enough insulin to bring that spike back down. And that's what kind of happens if you have an unbalanced way of eating. If you have a balanced way, there really shouldn't be a question of if you produce enough insulin. It's your blood sugar spikes a little bit, insulin comes down, and brings it down. Eat, brings it down. And you stay within this really nice little tiny wave. And then other factors can kind of increase or decrease it. But yeah, your blood sugar is constantly kind of being pulled in both directions. And then you add something into the mix, like prediabetes or type 2, and that wildly throws it off. I'm not going to talk about type 1 as much, just because it's the autoimmune disease, and it's a completely different story. And it's not brought on by lifestyle things. And that's something I think we see this a lot when it comes to PCOS also and other kind of like similar, you know, people will be prediabetic or they will be type 2, right? And then that is now the reason that they are here in this place and people see it backwards, whether they know it or not or understand it or not. But the fact that we are overweight isn't because we are type 2, it's the other way around. And that is something that I think sometimes is difficult to hear for people because a lot of people will say, well, you know, this doesn't go for me because I am. No, type 2, that's a lifestyle thing. Type 1, different story, like you said. Type 2, and I actually don't know, maybe you don't know, you know this, which type is more common? I would guess 2, but like I actually haven't looked into it myself, so. Type 2 is now, type 1 used to be, just because it's your pancreas stops working and producing insulin altogether. So yeah, autoimmune condition, lifestyle. And what's funny is I do want to, I had a client recently within the last year. She came to me, she is stick thin, you would never in a million years. And she came to me and was like, I'm prediabetic. And her doctor was like, I don't think this is right. And she tested her sugars for a week. And sure enough, like, so sometimes there's a look to it, but not always. And I also want to press upon the overworked, overstressed person, like girl dinner. I hate that word so much because it's, it just kind of makes the issue worse. But it's not always that, because I also think it can downplay into kind of being dangerous on like, if that girl didn't come to me, she would have just eaten less and less, but stuck to her candy and glass of wine for dinner. But she wasn't gaining weight from it. So it was fine, right? And that's where her doctors were like, well, you don't look like it. So it must be fault. Like, it can't be. And I was like, well, it can. When 90% of the time, it's more than likely going to stem from, it's a stream of events. You eat more, you gain weight, that you have high blood sugar. Inevitably, you will get type 2 diabetes. No, no. And the beauty is that we can reverse these things. Yeah. Which I just think, and just like many other things, you know, like, but I would even say that with, with the blood sugars and insulin resistance, like, it's probably the easier one. You know what I mean? Out of, like, all the other things we can be dealing with, that one is actually pretty straightforward to deal with. You know what I mean? I think we kind of touched on a little bit on, like, the early signs as well on, like, blood sugars being out of whack. But you reversed your own pre-diabetes. So how did you do it? Like, what were the kind of steps, roughly, that you took there? So I had already been coaching at that point and been on many, many nutrition journeys. So I started going into a cut, into a deficit. I lowered the amount of carbs I was eating. I maintained the protein that I was eating. I did not mess with fats as much. And then one thing I did do is I did utilize a GLP-1 in very, very, very minor doses. I think I got up to 0.25 units, and that's it. So still considered, like, a slight microdose. And so that just helped me kind of do it a little bit faster because I got to a point where it's like, my body hurts. Because I'm 5'2". At that time, I weighed 192 pounds. And I would go to ride my bike or hike outside. And it's like, oh, my God. I'm just in pain. But it is as simple as lowered weight or lowered carbs. Did a little bit of, I wouldn't even say cardio. I just, like, walked outside after meals a little bit more. And that's it. Like, continued to lift the same, continued to work out the same. Didn't do any extremes. It's just, cool, this got me here. Let's lower food a little bit more. That's it. And I don't, I hesitate. I want to be transparent in utilizing semaglutide. But that is not what got me the desired outcome. That was a tool that I used to help make the process a tiny bit faster because I had the basics nailed. I was following macros to a T. I was exercising to a T. I just wanted it to happen a little bit faster. And that's why I did it. I think that's fair. I think that's totally fair. And it can be a tool. And especially these days. I mean, you and me both. I know we both see the same stuff online. But, like, it's all peptides. And, you know. And this was before they were cool. Yeah. It's, like, longer, you know, years ago. But, like, now, I think this week or last week or something, I think, I'm not sure which specific ones or all of them or whatever. But Norway has made peptides illegal, basically. Interesting. Norway is a funny country with that stuff. It's very behind with many things, even with supplements or whatever. That's a different episode, maybe. What I was going to say is, with those things, I think there's a time and place for them, right? Same goes for medication or your peptides or other things. Even with supplements, I think, in the same way. You know what I mean? Like, do we use them quite a bit sometimes with certain cases? Yeah. It can actually speed up the process. Do we stay on them? No. And I think that's the biggest thing to take away from this is you had everything dialed in already. And you and me both know you could have done it without. Yeah. And you would have still been successful. It just helped. And it kind of sped up the process. And I personally think that's totally great. I think it becomes a slippery slope when people just take that and they don't do the lifestyle and they don't do the food. Well, and then they wonder why it doesn't work. Because I got to a point where I stopped. I was only on semaglutide for eight months and reached a desired outcome and then weaned myself off of them. But maintain the weight loss. And then I was able to gain more muscle on top of that and maintain a physique that I'm pretty damn happy with. But I never, I see a lot of people that now they're coming to work with me where they've done the GLP, gained all the weight back. And then they're like, well, I don't know what to do now. And it's like, well, we're going to do all the basics that you didn't do in the first place. And now they can't take the GLP because they get sick from it. And so- Is that a response? Like once you've used it, you kind of become sensitive to it or something? Because I have no experience with that stuff. So it's not necessarily like once you've used it, you have a response. It's I had horrible side effects. Okay. I threw up pretty much every morning once or twice and then I'd be done and then I was fine the rest of the day. But you get to a certain dose and it's person dependence. I know some people who were on really high doses for a long period of time, but nothing happened. And then what I was getting at more is they took the drug, they went cold turkey, they gained the weight back. And it's like, well, to do anything, you're going to have to, one, spend a lot of money because we're going to have to get back up to that amount of the drug again. And they're not cheap. And especially if you don't meet the criteria of actually having prediabetes, they're expensive because you have to go through other peptide companies. And then you run into a myriad of problems depending on who you get them through. So get your peptides from reasonable places. Yeah. No, absolutely. I will say kind of briefly going back to the Norway thing, I do know that Wegovy and a few other like weight loss medications are legal. It's just like the peptides and, you know, like they're kind of just closing the door on that one. But no, I think there's a time and place for that stuff. But it's the same with weight loss medication. It's the same with gastric bypasses. It's the same with any of that stuff. You know, like it's something that can absolutely work. And I know people close to me, including family members, who've done either the weight loss medications and or a gastric bypass and also close friends and multiple people. And what have I seen happen? More often than not, it comes right back. Because why did we become overweight? That is what we need to look at. And I'll always just use myself as an example with these cases. When I was overweight, it wasn't because of a lack of medication or lack of peptides. It was because I ate like crap and I smoked and I drank and I was on the couch playing video games. I didn't lift weights. That is why I was fat. Yeah. And those were the things that needed to be addressed. And, you know, obviously it's a different thing than medications or peptides. For me, it was like I tried to fat burn. So that's maybe like a little kind of like version of that. But like, obviously that fat burner wasn't going to do. It was my habits. You know what I mean? And I'd like to lead with that because that puts the power back into your own hands. And, hey, okay, you have type 2 diabetes. Let's do something about it. Or you're pre-diabetic. Okay. That's just objectively where we're at. Let's do something about it because you can get healthier. By eating healthier, doing the lifestyle things, the basics, like you said. And I think that's such a cool thing. That's what really fires me up about what you and me do here with helping people. It's stuff you can let you do like right now, your next meal, tomorrow, you know what I mean? Yeah. And make a change and get healthy and put this thing into remission. How do you use serum labs with these kind of cases? Like do you kind of lead with blood work or do you feel like, hey, let's first just lock in the basics and then maybe have a look? Or what do you think? It depends. A lot of people come to me from their general practitioner. And so they already have. And they have an A1C, which is the bare minimum, which I'm happy they can get it. But I'll kind of, I lead with the basics always. And so it's assessing three to five days of what they eat and then talking to them about it and then kind of making sure that that's all they were eating. So it's, well, you had a coffee. What was that coffee? Did it have five pumps of sugar in it? Did it have creamer? Did it have like every single little thing throughout their day? Dressings, like fats that they were unaware that they were eating, extra calories kind of here and there, snacks that add up more than others. And what I see from that is people under report more often than not. And they're like, oh, I am barely eating. And it's like, well, you're actually eating a lot, but it's coming to you in fat, which is super dense. And that's why you're gaining weight. And then I'll kind of assess blood work second, just because those basics have to be there. If they can master them pretty quickly, awesome. So I guess simultaneously, if not first, I'll do blood work, but that's usually how they come to me. And then if they don't have a full one, I will then get it in the fasted insulin and kind of go from there to see where it's coming from. Because if it's just in the fasted blood sugar, but it hasn't really affected your insulin yet, cool. And that's a whole lot easier to fix. And then once it kind of gets into insulin, still easy-ish. I don't like using that word, actually. It's still doable, but it's just different. But it's the same basics of assessing what you eat, lowering and balancing what you eat, and then exercising a little bit. Because muscle mass is always going to help you be more insulin sensitive and have better blood sugar regulation. Because that sugar is somewhere to go. And you can use it in your muscles to play outside or do whatever you want and lift. And it's only going to be a net positive to lift weights. But yeah, so eating a little bit less than you were, gaining more muscle than you had, moving a little bit more after meals. It is the unsexiest thing ever, but it works. And that's just, again, it is that simple. And sometimes it really sounds like that is it. But yeah, it is. You know what I mean? Again, it's the stuff that doesn't market well. So it obviously makes sense that people are distracted by the flashy stuff like myself in 2012. So it makes sense. I get it. But it really is like, hey, go for a walk after your meal. Have that balanced meal. Obviously, I do think changing your habits and your behaviors, that's the harder part for people. That's really where it's not as straightforward, which is obviously why we have a job as coaches. But the ask for like the what to do, that's actually very simple and straightforward. Doing it consistently long enough to a point where you build new habits, that's a different thing, I think. And I do want to be respectful of your time. I see we have just about seven minutes left. But what do you feel? Because I did write down like the eating more part as well. What do you see with most clients as we're talking about this, right? So we know what to do. It's actually very straightforward. What do you feel like is the hardest thing for people to do and change when they kind of start this whole process? Kind of just what you said of it's the lifestyle habits that they've gained without even realizing that they were habits and making minor changes to them. And so morning coffee, what does that look like? How can we make it more macro-friendly, calorically friendly, however you want to label it? How can we make your breakfast more satiating and so you actually stay full until it's actually lunchtime and you don't feel like you need to go to the break room and have snacks? Like how can we make dinner more filling, maybe more volumous, and so it digests easier into sleep? And kind of going around that and then touching on the like eating more. It's more like you're eating for something. More of the right foods maybe. Yeah. Well, you're eating like for a purpose and you just find - I think having a purpose is huge. And so it's like sometimes, unfortunately, being healthy or your healthiest version of yourself doesn't quite cut it or people don't actually know what that looks like. And so working towards something, eating for something to where it's like, cool, I have an end point and a goal to reach. Like that kind of helps the drive a little bit more and those mindset changes to be like you start small, we're working towards something. We're just minor changes working towards something. And then so once you get to that first end date, whether it's an event, a separate date that you put on the calendar for just like, cool, you have a time frame that we're working with. Like once we get to that point, I can show them everything that they've done to build up to where they are now because it's really easy also to get lost in like, oh, I haven't made much progress. It's like, no, actually, where you were a month ago is crazy. And see all these little 1% have built up into 30% of what you do now. So that's like the eating for a little bit more of a purpose rather than just like eating because it tastes like all foods going to taste good, whether it's because if you cook well, food's going to taste good, whether it's healthy or not. And so it's eating for a purpose, not necessarily just for like the dopamine hit of grabbing something that is a sugary snack. Yeah, for sure. And that's I actually saw a post today that I kind of agree with as well. It's like a lot of people do almost think that or maybe we're just wired to talk to respond this way, but it's like when we're hungry, we can also just be a little hungry without that having to mean I got to eat something right now. You don't have to fix it necessarily. It's actually a normal thing, like being a little bit hungry sometimes. It's actually a normal thing. Obviously, we're not talking about like starving yourself, you know, for fat loss. But like, no, but the hunger is actually normal. Totally fine. You're going to fix it eventually. It just doesn't have to be right now. Yeah, absolutely. And that is one thing that I do see, especially with early on clients, like we can't yet trust our natural hunger satiety cues yet from all these ups and downs and the diets and all this. And that's where we talked about maintenance earlier. And, you know, it's a more difficult thing to get someone to maintenance and reintroduce more carbs and more fats because they've been taught to avoid fats because that's going to make you fat. And like getting that up and actually showing them, hey, this is what your body actually needs. That is such an important thing, I think, to go through. And it's also where people have the hardest time, I feel like, as well. More than dieting, right? Well, yeah. The mindset piece is just a whole - I mean, we could do a whole other episode on just that. Oh, yeah. We could probably shoot. But, yeah, the mindset piece is huge because without that, you're probably not going to make much progress. No, absolutely. And I would say still like with the hunger and satiety cues, like once you are at maintenance, that's where I would expect it to kind of balance out for a while. It's going to be a different person too, I guess. But in the beginning especially, like we can't really even trust. But people love to use it like intuitive eating. Like, yeah, maybe someday, but not right now because that's not where, you know, we are at right now. Yeah. You've been eating intuitively and that is why we are here today. You know what I mean? Yeah. And that's the uncomfortable thing. Yeah. I call intuitive eating the PhD of eating. That is what we strive for. That is true mastery of your mindset, your hunger cues, satiety cues, true balance of food to actually stay where you want to intuitively. I haven't reached that point yet. Yeah. I track macros all the time because it helps my brain. Yeah. I will say, I mean, I'm not, I mean, I have my go-to meals and they're not really changing as much. I'm not tracking anything right now. Is that intuitive? I don't know. I just built routines and habits and I know my go-to meals and I am aware from the tracking of my portion sizes because I've put it on that plate. I've weighed it out. I know how I can kind of like balance that out. Now, will I go back to tracking with Cronometer when I go through a fat loss phase, through a building phase, through reverse diet? Absolutely. Or I'll just build a meal plan. It's even easier. I'll just repeat every day, you know? But like, I do agree with you. It's like the ultimate kind of like that North Star. Like, that's what we want to go to. It's just not how we get the results. Like, that's a different process. And then we can work towards that once we're back at maintenance, for example, you know? But I do want to be respectful of your time once again. And I know you still got a whole work day ahead of you. So, I want to first of all, thank you for coming on. Yeah, thank you for having me. This was awesome. Yeah. I'm actually going to see you in two weeks. So, we'll catch up for sure. Yeah, absolutely. In the meantime, though, do you have any, like, updates to share with people? And where can people find you? People can find me. My website is CaitlinJCoaching.com. And then just Instagram is kind of the best way I respond quickly to messages. So, yeah. Anything regarding blood sugar outdoors, anything like that, feel free to message me. All right. Sounds great. I'll talk to you soon, then. Thanks. All right. All right. Let me see.