Johan Vesters: 0:00

What is up and welcome back to Talking Nutrition. Today's episode 46. We have another guest on a good friend of previous coach Lisa. What's up, Lisa?

Lisa Franz: 0:10

Hi to you on how are you doing?

Johan Vesters: 0:13

I'm pretty good. What are you?

Lisa Franz: 0:15

Very good. Thank you. I'm over here in Toronto. So I'm like seven hours behind you. For me the day has only just begun.

Johan Vesters: 0:23

I saw you were there. It's like one of the very few times I see you in slightly less warm place. I feel like

Lisa Franz: 0:29

Yes. And to be honest, it's not going to happen very many times again. I'm sure this is a lovely city normally, but I'm not enjoying it as much like this is probably one of the least favorite places I have traveled to over the last few years.

Johan Vesters: 0:46

Really.

Lisa Franz: 0:49

Just because I'm like I said, I mean weather wise, it's a bit of an adjustment. So for those of you listening, I have just come here from Colombia, and I generally try to seek out the warm some kind of a summer thing, sir. Over the last few years, I've been to places like Bali and Mexico and Dubai and so on. So this is indeed I mean, I thought end of April, beginning of May, I would be more or less on the safe side when it comes to weather. But I was very much at stake. And I woke up this morning to like two degrees Celsius. So not that much fun. But I saw on your stories that you had a massive snow dumb, so that's interesting.

Johan Vesters: 1:31

Oh, yeah, no, it's still winter over here. Like we're still looking at like quite a bit of snow. It actually stopped snowing now. But I mean, it's May 2 that we had a whole bunch of snow again. So that's incredibly

Lisa Franz: 1:42

fun. So I guess I actually have a question for you straight away. What amount of vitamin D Do you take? And then because like, I mean, of course for me, it's just an adjustment period now also, but even after two weeks, I'm like, oh, where's the sun? I want the sun.

Johan Vesters: 2:04

I usually take 5000s Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's what I usually have our clients do as well. So I kind of looked at, you know, what's kind of like, normally the okay amount for most people, you know, I think it's like 2000 ish. Like, for age on the higher end, I always take five I have for a long time. I combine that with k three, you know, sort of k two D 3k. Two more is not necessary. I think I checked it. The lesson was last year. I haven't had any bloodwork done yet this year, but it was fine. So yeah, that's actually all good. Like we barely got any sunlight. That's the thing now. At least for half year. So now we're actually getting to work towards the summer. So right now the sun rise is like 4am already. Well, I'm getting longer. So we're getting close to summer, which is where it's going to be live for 24 hours a day.

Lisa Franz: 3:04

Yeah, so that's like, June and like 21st of June or something like that.

Johan Vesters: 3:11

June July. Yeah. I think it's end of June. I always forget the actual dates. But cool. It's it's good to have you on we recorded a podcast episode for lease house podcasts together last week. So now we're here. Today we want to talk about Lean gaining, which I think is a really cool topic. Because we I mean, you me both like we talked about weight loss, a whole lot fat loss and those kinds of things. And we try to educate, I really feel like I'm of the opinion that pretty much everyone can benefit of a dedicated Muscle Gaining phase. Even if it's just to kind of get over that thing of the skill of slightly moving up, you know, I think a lot of people are often thinking, hey, I want to look better, I'm gonna be lighter. You know, I'm gonna be even lighter and then lighter. But there's very little focus on muscle gain. And I mean, for the listener, Lisa was my coach a little while ago. We both for a very long time. I think that was like a

Lisa Franz: 4:14

Yeah, I was just going to say at least nine months but probably more like a year.

Johan Vesters: 4:20

I think you're right, it was 2021 and I think it was just about nine months because I had some maintenance like weeks or something like before and after. So that's right and during even I think but that's correct. So I mean, all I can say is like that whole process was a little uncomfortable sometimes because you are gaining some body fat over time etc. Which is also why I wanted to talk about Lean gaining like the name sometimes is a little at least for people who don't know like how it really works like it's maybe not always like misleading you know, but that's what it's called. So I want I want people have you know, having the right expectations, but like that process was definitely a weird getting happier again over time. But then afterwards do a cut. And I'm revealing that that was so cool. And like, that's when you get to see the results really, you know, so want to talk about that. Because you know, as a female, I think we're seeing even fewer people go through that. Right. So tell us a little bit about your current lean gaining phase like how's it going so far? How long have you been going? And yeah, let's start there.

Lisa Franz: 5:28

Yeah, I'll give you a little bit of a background. So I guess, I am a Nutrition coach, as well. As Johan introduced me, I'm the owner and operator of a nutrition coaching in life, we have a small team, and all in all, and I would say, I'm probably 70% of the people that we work with as general population, we do have a couple of athletes, we have a few people that are performance focused, but as you say, the majority of people are kind of more weight loss focused nonetheless. Even here, we advocate with, with many women, especially those who are new to strength training, to go into, or to try to build more muscle even at maintenance, because as a beginner, as a novice to lifting, you can actually build muscle, even in a deficit. But um, you know, the more advanced you get kind, the more building blocks you just need to supply your body with. So building blocks as in like calories overall. And so if I look at myself, I have been strength training for about nine years now. So I'm definitely more of an advanced lifter. And I used to be and still am a big advocate, as I was saying, of maintenance phases, because I truly think it allows you to live and enjoy life the best and you can still, particularly in the beginning, see a lot of advance or progress. When it comes to you get stronger, you get more definition, you, you know you you're still taking care of hormones, you're sleeping well, etcetera. But for some reason I didn't. So So in the previous years, or in the last two, four years, I basically stayed in maintenance because I really felt very comfortable in my body before that I have come from a background of yo yo dieting through or not yo yo dieting, but basically restrictive dieting from going from paleo, low carb, you name it, whatever, until I found macros and have been loving life since then, because I'm sure Johan has spoken about macros in plenty of times before, but just the amount of freedom that you gain through macros in the sense of what you can eat. And I travel a lot as I just alluded to, also. And I think macros are a beautiful way to still feel able to enjoy cold, different cultures and trying new things. But while practicing moderation, so before that, I remember traveling once when I was doing like paleo, and I was in Asia, I was in Thailand at the time. And I vividly remember standing in the supermarkets just starting to cry because everything or was in the supermarket was a food court, everything came with rice, everything, you know, I had something in there that I quote unquote, couldn't eat. So I guess just a little bit of a side grant, I think macros are great for traveling, even if you're just estimating or guesstimating things. But anyway, so basically from 2020 to 2022, roughly, and I was just in calorie maintenance. But because my lifestyle changed throughout, sometimes I went through like more walking periods just because where I was living, I was walking more or, and then I had a little bit of an injury with my hip. So my training adjusted and for some reason. I don't believe that at the end of this so like in 2022 my quote unquote maintenance calories were still my maintenance, I noticed that I was I was leaning out I mean this luxury problem. I guess I became slimmer, I became hungrier though my period was more irregular and so on. And so I thought, okay, maybe I actually do need to bump up my calories and then someone else coincidentally at the same time said to me, Hey, Lisa, you know, I think was very lovingly but just kind of like, Hey, I think I don't see you do as much glute work anymore. I feel like your leg strength has kind of decreased your glutes have kind of decreased and stuff. I was like, Well, I mean, I didn't have a coach at the time. So again, there would be the value of a coach in those instances, but I was very, very grateful for that person to again love When we pointed out it was not like, Hey, your your ass is getting flat it was, it was like very, you know, nicely. And so I started thinking, you're right, I really I really should try this. And also, just from a coach's perspective, I mean, I had prior to that never gone through an intentional gaining phase. Again, when I was more in the Paleo realm when I was doing more CrossFit, I certainly was more at maintenance slash surplus, but it never had been an intentional calorie surplus. And so I thought, Okay, I'm going to do this even just for the coaching experience. But mind you, I was actually kind of afraid of it or hesitant, because I guess we should, or I should define lean gaining at first also. So basically, as we said, you need to be in a calorie surplus, so eating more calories than what your body is burning. And with the intention that you're gaining weight, for most women, that is kind of the scary, of course, the thought behind this is that you're mostly gaining muscle and minimal fat. So that would be my differentiation between a lean, gaining phase and like a proper bulk, or even a dirty book. So when people say dirty bulk, that's kind of like just eat whatever, as much as you can. And it doesn't matter how much fat you're putting on. But yeah, so certainly most people do not want that. But nonetheless, like I think even just the other phrase of like, bulking, it doesn't sound very feminine. So even in my coaching practice, I don't really use that word, because I think most people shy away from it, you probably even hear from clients, and I'm sure it's the same for you, Yo, man, we even hear I don't want to look too bulky, etcetera. So if you come to someone who says that, hey, you should do a bulking phase, they're gonna, like run the other direction pretty quickly. But if you say, Hey, you're saying you want to shape more, you want to tone up more you want you you know, that's, that's their wordage. And you and I both know that that means gaining muscle. But in the sense, you could say like, Hey, you told me this is your goal. So what we need to do is actually you need to do an intentional strengthen Muscle Gaining phase or something like that. And right, so if you frame to them, yeah, let's let's lean gain, it always sounds a little bit better. And for me also, just with that thought I'm, I mean, I'm generally a person, I need to take baby steps, I need to do things slowly. And if someone would have said to me right away, hey, we're bumping up your calories by 30%. I would have said like, Fuck, no,

Johan Vesters: 12:49

I'm not allowed to, I think, yeah, absolutely,

Lisa Franz: 12:53

I would have, I would have never done that. So my initial increase was actually just by 10%. So I bumped it up very marginally and didn't notice or the way it didn't go up for the first three weeks. So I bumped it up another 5% or 15%, for probably the first three months or so. So I'm now this is my eighth month, actually, I committed initially to a minimum of six months. And there was a reason behind this as well because I mean, some people think, Hey, can I just do like a month gaining phase or even two or three, but reality is a you're not gonna see a lot of progress during that time, it does take some time for your body to like, adjust and be if you were to do a cut afterwards, sometimes, you know, everything that you gained, you're basically cutting away in those next three months again, anyway, so if anyone out there has an intention of doing a gaining phase, and I would recommend something similar to like, at least six months closer to a year is usually a great amount of time and you're not going to regret it afterwards. And the thing that went well for me or work well for me during that time too was that I wanted to time it in a way where I'm not somewhere close to a beach or somewhere super hot anymore because again, like I said I was in Mexico before and go to Colombia and I was I was in a city in Colombia where it's a little bit cooler. So you know you do wear a t shirt or sweater every now and then and it's in Mexico I would have felt uncomfortable going to the beach most days in a bikini and you even though from the outside it doesn't look like by now I have gained any or a lot of body fat. So I feel very different. As you said there are days where you're just not feeling that great. But I should I should go back to the beginning. So the end intention was to gain about half a kilo or maximum or about a pound per month. And that's a very, I mean, we always have to look at things from the perspective of how taller biggest this person right now, for someone your size, like I'm, I started the gaining phase at 53 and a half kilos. So you know, the percentage wise it's very different for me that's like about what is it? I'm terrible with percentage, but that's about, like, 1% or so per, no 10 percents? Jesus, I can't do maths. But no. It's about one person per month, per month, right? Yeah, okay. Yeah, are you we obviously have to scale that up for someone who's a little bit of a larger size. With 100 kilos, you're going to aim for like one kilo or so per month. But anyway, that was the intention. And my body played along so nicely, I have to say it really like so far. I up until last month. So I'm now at 57.1. So just a little bit below that target the last month, it's kind of stagnated, even though I actually bumped up my calories further. So I'm now at 20%, above where I started, and I mostly increased calories through carbs, so I kept my protein the same, I increase my carbs, especially around my training time. And I would say those things are. Or these could be really regarded as some tips for someone who wants to do a lean gaining phase. So bunching more carbs around your training time, that's when it's most likely that your body's going to use it for muscle gain, rather than storing it as fat. The other thing that I did still do was I still continued to track reasonably accurately. So you know, 80 90% of the time, I would weigh out my things I'm not. It's not like, oh, yeah, I'm in a bulking phase. Now every meal, I'm going to have a burger or eating out or whatever. And I mean, you're, you're smiling, but still, some people think, Hey, I have more food, more room to play. So now I can have more of the

Johan Vesters: 17:20

smiley. Yeah, you get that, you kind of get that idea. And I had that multiple times I remember, that's where I was laughing was, it's like, I'm eating more calories anyway, you know, I can exert a little looser, you know, I have a little bit more. And that's a that's a very kind of, like, slippery slope to go down. I think 100% For you know, it's, you're getting closer to kind of like a dirty bulk ish, you know, zone where it's a little too flexible. You know,

Lisa Franz: 17:51

yeah, let's not forget that both those things were a were were estimating. And there's just more room for error. And even with things where we're scanning a barcode, or where we're like, let's say, the ice cream that you purchase, and you take home and you scan the barcode, still, anything that's processed or packaged, and there is like a 27, or whatever, percent room for error where they can actually even though it might say 100 calories per whatever it might be 130. So you know, the more is still the stick with the 80 90% Whole Food Rule, of course, that the quantity and enough itself is going to increase, excuse me, it's going to increase a little bit if you have more calories to play with. But nonetheless, I did really try intentionally to keep it at two, three meals out per week. And I do think that that has been one of the biggest and blessings because also the other thing is when you have more of those process things or you eat out more, inevitably, you're going to feel fluffier the next days, most of the time, not always, but you know, at the extra sodium, just just different kinds of foods that your digestion is perhaps not used to. And so I really wanted to minimize that feeling of, oh, I don't want to be in this gaining phase anymore. It still again, there were some days where I felt like that for me. Usually. It's around my ovulation. But I have that even when I'm not in a lean gaining phase that like five, six days of the month. I just feel fat even though I know I'm not objectively not and I know logically also, but that's how I feel. And so, of course, this is exacerbated or maybe that perception is blurred a little bit. If you are in a gaining phase and then your first thought is oh, this is because I'm eating more. And then like even for me, even for me as a coach, and I have been you know, nutrition coaching for five years now. So this is exactly what I tell my clients and my first thought is like of course that's not because you're eating a couple 100 calories more this is because yesterday, because you're around your ovulation or whatever. But our first thought just goes to odds because of the food that I ate. And the first, the next instinct is, I want to pull out of this, I want to go back into a cut, or I want to reduce my calories. And here, this is the other caution that I'm going to say, like be, stick with your plan, really stick with your plan, don't do any knee jerk reactions, even though you might have been, you know, gaming for three, four months or whatever. And this is where a coach does come in really, really handy. Who can talk you out of it, or you simply have someone else who holds you accountable. Or you you know, you mark something on your calendar where you're like, nope, up until that point, I'm going to keep going. What still in those instances, in my experience, this can help you feel less fluffy, less fat, I guess, is again, those Whole Foods, still making sure we're eating whole foods. But under that point to really making sure that digestion is smooth, this is actually a funny, quote unquote problem that probably a lot of people are not used to dealing with if they're if they come from more of a calorie restriction side, which most women do, let's be honest. So I had to learn that I needed to swap to eat less fiber, for instance, I needed to learn that, okay, my increase calories, I can't just write my increased carbs, I shouldn't just triple the amount of vegetables that I'm eating and because otherwise, I'm clogging up my digestive system, or even things like Oh, it's you know, you can't just eat three 400 grams of carbs through oats, or at least I cannot my digestion doesn't let me otherwise I'm going to be super bloated and blocked up or, and so I had to learn, hey, actually, in my case, more rice is great, especially around training. Again, this is where your body's going to absorb this really nicely. Or just other things where it really required a shift from that dieting mindset where you're like, oh, I need to get the leanest cut of chicken, I need to get the leanest bit of fish. And then suddenly, Hey, Lisa, you've got more room to play with. So maybe just swap all the Lean stuff for the fatty stuff now, and you're gonna have an easier time getting all the food in. So if you're if you're a female who's coming from more of that calorie restriction background, or maybe even just someone in general has just gone through a cut, wanting to go into the meeting phase. It's really, I don't want to say it's a 180. But all the strategies where we're usually like, Hey, don't drink your calories. Don't you know, take out the peanut butters and so on. We can flip flop that often in a lean gaining phase where we're like, I'm struggling to eat all this food, okay, maybe I'm making my first meal into a smoothie because I don't need to chew at all. And I can easily put more banana more peanut butter and whatever in there to get my calories. And I don't know if you ever had that issue when you were losing gaining or when you were gaining.

Johan Vesters: 23:32

I did so I think so it's gonna depend on a person. For me though, like, I agree with you on the oats, because I always eat a lot of oats. And in the beginning, I think I was adding a lot but I did notice that digestion was. So I would switch that for more rice, or basically a cream of rice. But you know, actually both, you know, just like white rice is just easy. So my post workout was cream of rice. My breakfast was still oats. But I was just trying to add stuff that was easier to digest. You know, it's like I said, you know, you can actually have a whole bunch of white rice and be okay with it digestion wise. But then if it's oats, and I'm not here like demonizing oats either. No, absolutely. Yes. Same. So that could be one of them. I think it's it's weird to sometimes because also for clients, you tend to think like it has to be all clean. You know what I mean? I actually talked to someone recently. And he was like, Yeah, I was on this plan. And I was trying to bulk but it was so much food and I couldn't get it in because we're so so much. He said like are so much chicken and broccoli. I was like okay, well sounds very typical to right. You always say like the chicken and broccoli and rice. But like there's definitely a time and place for for sort of flexible foods. And then the fattier foods, which I also think as much as I like lean protein sources doesn't mean that the fatty ones are bad either, you know,

Lisa Franz: 25:04

so absolutely not. No,

Johan Vesters: 25:05

I think I think it's, it's a funny one. Because people do struggle with that, you know, like, whether it's a lean gaining phase, or a reverse diet even we think automatically as much as even up to even that goes for the skill but also food and stuff. We still kind of think sometimes like more okay, that's not a good thing. You know what I mean? It's definitely over and over again.

Lisa Franz: 25:30

So for me, that was actually like a great experience, because I really just saw like, hey, everything's tools that we can use at different times of the, you know, even like, if you compare to your you're building something, are you creating something, and you have different tools for different phases, different seasons, and that's exactly it, that chicken, chicken, breast and rice and you know, trying to get keep the food volume high is amazing when you're on a really low calorie diet, and you just want to feel a little bit fuller, and you have like 40 grams of fats to play with. But then if you have double that, or even more, and we don't like most of us are not professional bodybuilders that have the time to just train and eat and sleep. So, you know, the majority of people are not going to want to eat six to eight meals a day and just spend half an hour each time shoving that down essentially. So practically do have to consider practicality to and for me, I have to say like, I don't like too big of a meal in the middle of the day, because it makes me feel sluggish in the afternoon at the same time. Like also, I don't want to be have a huge, huge, huge dinner or that dinner that's really, really hard to digest at night, and then prevents me from getting a good night's sleep. So there are a lot of things to consider for someone personally, right? It has to be right for you. And of course, so the navigating around that. I think fiber is a huge component or digestion is a huge component. Because if you're trying to lean gain, and you're constantly feeling bloated or cotton, your digestive system is just having a hard time to catch up. Then fast like looking through your food log and thinking maybe we need to switch some of those high fiber vegetables for more things like spinach or whatever, that's super easy to digest. Or maybe you don't need to eat three cups of berries. And instead we can have you eat a banana because it's a little bit easier to again, there's absolutely nothing wrong with berries, I love berries, but maybe it's like half a cup of berries and a banana and a half or so to sort of balance things out. So yeah, fiber when it comes to fiber, I use us to think back in the day. The more is the better. But I am especially after working with, you know hundreds of people and seeing that everyone's digestion is so different. Yes, some people can tolerate 5060 grams of fiber. Other especially more petite females, we do tend to struggle with digestion more than than men on average. Maybe 20 grams is really all that you can handle. And that's absolutely fine. But let's you know, let's find the sources that do make you feel good, where you can go to the bathroom somewhat regularly, because that's still that's going to prevent you from feeling miserable throughout your Ganey phase or in any kind of phase actually, as well. I don't know if that's something that you see among your clients also, where again, like you said, many people think the cleaner the better. Especially I don't know why I personally have such a weird connotation with rice maybe does stem from my paleo time, but it was like, Oh my gosh, rice, you're gonna eat that. Straight away. It's like in spice your blood sugar way too high. Well, but I guess it also comes from the fact that I know if I have rice in the middle of the day, I feel super sleepy. Like if I have a decent portion of rice in the middle of the day, I feel super sleepy like an hour later. And I just cannot like with my work, I want to stay alert and awake throughout the day. So I'm actually bunching. I usually train in the morning. So I have a ton of carbs around the training, essentially. And then my midday meal is a little bit lower in carbs higher and fats. And then the evening meal is sort of more balanced again. Of course protein being steady throughout. But yeah, that's just my experience with it.

Johan Vesters: 29:40

Yeah, I think it's, I get that sometimes where people especially in the beginning, people, they join a program, you know, your coach, program, mine, whatever. And they expect it has to be all cleaned. You know, and I think as much as I am for most eating whole foods, most of the minimally processed foods, I think, like clean eating as you know, it's almost like overrated. Like if you take too far, you know what I mean? Because, yes, 100% like, you want to have that stuff. Most of the time like 80 90% like 80% Most of the time, maybe 90% cut or something. But like, that's most definitely what we want to focus on. But that doesn't mean that you can't have To the Oreo, or to the Froot Loops, or the cookies, or whatever you want to have, you know, like there is a time and place for that. And I swear, just yesterday, had a talk with someone who's currently struggling getting his categories up. And he actually needs Allah. So it's maintenance calories turns out to be higher than what we expected. He's just very active, fast metabolism. So we're trying to crank up his, his, his calories, you know, and he's got a good amount of fats already. He's at an amount of carbs where it's kind of like, well, that's, that's already impressive to get in. So he's like so so what do I do now, because I'm eating good, I'm eating healthy, I'm having my apples and snacks and all this stuff. And I look at his food log. And as I probably like, 90, some days even like 95 ish percent, like minimally processed or Whole Foods, I tell him to like, hey, it's almost weird to say this as a nutrition coach. But I actually want you to add more flexible foods here. Because now we're at a spot where you're eating your fruits, you're eating your vegetables, I know, you take your greens drink, and your supplements and stuff. So he's, he's covered, basically, there, you know what I mean? Doesn't mean that we can just have an unlimited stuff of like, are so limited amount of just like stuff on top of that. But we can most definitely add some flexible foods there. And in this case, that's going to be very beneficial.

Lisa Franz: 31:53

Definitely. And I think, I think even things like bread, or wraps and so on, that goes down, like pretty easy. And for most people, I mean, gluten free if you're if you're sensitive to gluten, but for most people, that's something that's pretty easy to digest as well. And you know, a bunch of bread is easily just snacked on, and you don't really notice too much. And the other thing that you mentioned was just like, I guess if you have to get to that amount of carbs, you even, you can even consider like an intro workout carb shake potentially, like dextrose or maltose, or highly branched, cyclic dextran. And I think I mean, that's not going to apply for most women, I would say unless they're like super active, or they do a highly glycolytic sport. But still, if you're like really struggling, that's something something where you can easily add another 25 or 50 grams of carbs even. I guess, when it comes to training, that's probably something else that we should touch on in terms of Lean gaining, because I will say that I have changed up things with my training. And like, overall, I'm super, super happy that the majority of my gains really have gone to my glutes so far, no one I can tell. But I will also say that it does feel right now that I'm like, all I'm doing is training my glutes. So it's not like I'm neglecting the other parts completely. But that's what it feels like to me. So for instance, I often also hear with with clients are, you know what to want to shave my glutes more etc. And then I talked about we talked about their training and turns out, they're only really hitting their glutes like once a week, maybe a second time, like indirectly, when they're doing this, like leg press a little bit or you know, whatever. But I'm like, Well, how are you expecting to grow your glutes if you're really doing glute work once per week, that's just not going to happen. And so prior to starting missing any phase I was doing to lower body days where I was hitting my glutes, but not as intentionally as I am now. I'm also because I have in the past trained a lot with just free weights like barbell, kettlebell dumbbell, etc. And for the last seven, eight months, I have been going to a gym which also has machines and I will say that if you have a specific target for particular body part, that is where actually gyms do shine. Like I'm a big proponent of free weights. I love free weights. I truly think everyone can reach great physiques and athleticism with free weights alone. So if you have a home gym, and you're like, Oh no, I don't have that. Don't worry, you can still you know, achieve your goals. But nonetheless, if you are really like really focused on a particular bar party or bringing up a particular part, or bringing up imbalances, well, I do think that the gym is going to come in very handy. So the reason I'm saying this is yes. Great. We have great glute exercises with the hip thrusts with the deadlift or Romanian deadlift in particular, squats also of course, but things like kickbacks, honestly they have allowed me to to just learn to feel my glutes more I mean, I would like to say that even in the previous years I've had and have had reasonably decent Mind Muscle could action. But I really wanted to put a particular focus on it of like really being able to just to even just activate a muscle, just, you know, I'm thinking of a body part. And I can activate it right now like a left or like, just squeeze my left glute. As funny as it sounds, but like a lot of people can't do that, or I do often hear like ham doing hip thrusts, but I'm not feeling my glutes. So if this is you, then things like glute kickbacks, or those abduction machines, etc. They can be awesome. And the thing that I actually also noticed when doing because I slowed down my reps a lot, also for things like Romanian deadlift, just to increase the mind muscle connection, I actually noticed, hey, my left hamstring is way weaker than my right hamstring. And I noticed that as well, when I was doing leg curls. At first, I had just done like bilateral so with both legs, so it never really stood out to me. But then when you do more single legged stuff suddenly was like, Oh, my right hamstring is always trying to take over. And of course, that has repercussions to the glutes as well, and how you activate those there. So that's actually something that I have really learned over these last few weeks, or I'm proud of discovering, especially so far into my journey, you know, and the thing is, of course, the longer you lift weights, yes, the more progress you make, but also the more opportunity you have to have small errors in your in the way that you move because it just feels so natural to you. And then your goes by and this error manifested and more on this error manifests even more and then throw in like a maybe an injury here or there, which again, brings things even more out of whack and then causes you to shift, maybe your weight more from here to there. Or to pull more from this angle, whatever it is like I would I would like to argue that most people have something where they're probably not pushing through the right muscles or activating the right muscles in certain movements. And so coming again, coming more from like a CrossFit strength functional fitness type background, then digging into more of like a body builder type training program over these last seven months has been incredibly eye opening and beneficial for me. And I think for my long term health also because of course, the sooner you notice those discrepancies, those imbalances, the sooner you can address them. So like now that I know, hey, this hamstring is is more easily activated than the other. I'm only doing single legged leg curls because I know this is something that I want to work on or even during my RDLs I'm like really focused and thinking of that left hamstring like no, no. And I often can even feel it towards the later reps, I can sometimes even feel it. Okay, now the right side is taking over my left side is hardly working anymore. And so then I stopped even though I might not be close to failure. So that's just, that's just something that I have learned. But I guess for someone to take away from this would be if you have a particular body part that you want to train, like don't be afraid to train it three times per week, I would say I mean, start with two if you currently have only been doing once but like at least like three times. And then I'm really overthink also, how are you lifting because, again, coming from more of a functional training perspective, I'm used to doing deadlifts, or squats in the way that just pick the weight off the ground. Like that's all that matters, like not all but of course the core matters, etc. But when I approach lift, I go to the barbell, I'm like, my task here right now is to bring this barbell up from the ground to my hips and back down. But now, when I approach a barbell with the intention of I want to feel my hamstrings and my glutes, I'm going there and I'm like moving the barbell a little bit slower. That's not necessarily a requisite, but I'm approaching it more from the side of okay, I want to feel that muscle want to feel that muscle want to feel that muscle, I'm extending my hip and then I'm lowering it back down. So it comes it goes from like a task focused approach to more of like just a muscle focused approach and where the reps fall is. I wouldn't want to say it's secondary, but it's it's definitely not the important factor. And even if some days that means I'm lifting lighters just so that I can feel that muscle, I'm doing that now. But yeah, certainly very different to what my mindset was before and I think it's just a cool way to continue to grow as a coach as well.

Johan Vesters: 40:17

I think it's cool to to change up your trading so, so we both have the CrossFit background, and I also made that change a little while ago. Right before we started to work together to where I was just in CrossFit, I kind of just burned out hit a wall, I switched to almost like a power building ish program with just free weights. And then I just completely wanted to switch over different gym, just, you know, a Globo gym, I guess, with machines, and I really liked that change. And I still really enjoy it. It's stuck for the last couple of years for me. Right now, it's just a nice combination of like, barbell dumbbells and some machines. And I really liked that. And it's funny too, because like, coming from like, the CrossFit CrossFit space. There was like this thing against machines for a little while, you know? Because like, No, we're the machine. But now it's cool to see that change again, as with everything fitness to where, okay, now people understand like, there's a time and place for both. Well,

Lisa Franz: 41:25

sorry, carry on. Yeah, go ahead. I was just going to say, especially if you combine them nicely, I mean, a lot of great hybrid programs these days, you know, they'll have us jarred, maybe not start off, but the main focus still being on the compounds. And then you have your two three, accessory lifts or exercises, where you're like really focusing on your weaknesses and balancing things out. And just, yeah, I guess addressing those, those more isolated muscle groups.

Johan Vesters: 41:55

Yeah, I like the combination. I think it helps me to because for example, when I do squats, I notice I have this weird, like hip shift to the left a little bit, you know, so I like to do some isolation work there, too, or maybe do a leg press and stuff. And I like to combo I think I'm more of a fan of machines at the moment than free weights. But like, it's, it's just nice to change it up to and as you said, it's nice to, to actually feel that isolated muscle and really get a lot of work on there. Like target like, Okay, you want to, you know, build your glutes, okay, cool. Like, let's focus on that, let's put additional sets there, maybe even different exercises, you know, so you can really almost like specialize in that form block, but wanted to bring something up. Because, you know, we've been talking about building muscle here, you know, your female, I mean, men go through this too, but like, I've seen as, especially with female clients, to where I want to look better naked, basically, like, that's the goal, you know, I come from the low carb Did you know the cardio, etc. They're still very much into the mindset of, I need to look better, or I want to look better, I need to be doing cardio, I need to cut the carbs. I need to maybe do something like a bootcamp or something. But you see now too, we're talking about building muscle and you're doing a weightlifting based program. We haven't talked about cardio, we haven't talked about the body pump classes, or the jumping jacks, those kinds of things, which are all fine. By the way, don't get me wrong. But I think it's it's not common sense yet. For most women, that if you want to look better naked and you want to look leaner, we actually need to lift some weights there, you know, like, what's your take there? Like, let's say for example, to onboard a new a new person, female. She wants to look better for summer. She wants to look leaner, right? Tone Up. But they're only doing cardio and that's that's kind of like the only thing they've done. And they kind of don't want to lift weights, because they're afraid they're looking to go to look bulky then how would you go about the conversation? Interesting for the listener because coming from female, you know, it's probably kind of come over a little bit better that for me,

Lisa Franz: 44:29

I guess. Well, I think you're mentioning or you you're touching on a really good point overall with this topic, as you said still unfortunately wide spread and I absolutely I understand that I just want to I want to say that I understand that because number one those classes they make you feel like you did something right you finish it and you're full of yours. You're dripping in sweat or like even if you go for a run you get all these endorphins and adrenaline, adrenaline rushing and like it's fun. Number Number Two us women were actually more built or suited towards that moderate intensity but long duration sort of stuff. That's what like it feels easier to us. That's probably why we're also drawn towards that. So again, like I'm I used to be drawn towards that more also, like I loved the workout. I mean CrossFit. Do is slightly different to like f 45, orange theory or whatever. But the thing was still like, for me, that variation is what I loved. And I thought it was just so boring, you do all the same thing in the gym all the friggin time. And I loved having a variation. I love the community aspect, I loved having a teacher there who tells you what to do, you turn up after work. And you don't need to think about anything, you don't need to look at your training schedule or whatever, you just have an instructor there. And then you feel great afterwards, you might even feel like you've had a little bit of a burn or whatever in your legs or your glutes. So like, how, how is that, quote unquote bad for me? That's what my thought was, How can this be bad for me, if this is the one thing that makes me feel great in my day? Right, so that was the thought project, you know, work sucks, or everything else is stressful, you're, I have a ton of other problems. But there's like one hour where you can just like power it out, and you feel great afterwards. So then when someone said to me, or what I mean, it would try to explain that to me, in the sense of Hey, Lisa, look at your lifestyle, everything that you do is super high stressed, you're telling me you're not sleeping that well, you're telling me you have a little bit of lower belly fat that you really just can't get rid off, you're telling me your cycle is off. Like all these are indications that your body is overall in a really high stress state and understand that even though you feel like the exercise is fun, and not a stressor, it is a stressor, point, this is point number one, we need to acknowledge that a lot of this high intensity or interval stuff is a stressor. Point number two is you're telling me, you know you have a little bit of arm flap, you're telling me that you want to grow your glutes more, and so on and like look at the exercises that you've just been doing. Are you telling me you love running two, three times per week? What muscles are you really using when you're running? Well, it's kind of full body. But are you? Can you feel your glutes when you're running? No. Well, there you go. You're probably not using your glutes a whole heck of a lot. If you look at the movement pattern. So what exercises do we have? And then yeah, okay, well, we're doing more glute work in things like CrossFit, or in many of these functional type classes. But again, the repetitions is so high is this more in like an endurance, strength endurance type setting? And the research shows really clearly that most hypertrophy, we really get between a rep range of let's say, like, five to 30, yes, okay. 30 is high. But you know, someone might argue that, yes, an orange tea or whatever you do, do top 30 reps, but he's not getting the rest to reset and to add more weight. And this is the other thing that we need to see hypertrophy is slash muscle growth slash shaping. We need to progressively overload and in many of those classes, it's kind of like, Hey, you have a time. You know, do as many as you can go as hard as you can. But you're sort of using the same weights all the time. Like I'm saying this lovingly because I used to also do like body pump, clock classes, and so on. And you always know, for this and that exercise, I'm just using the little plates. And for this, I'm using the tiny plates and like, you already have that in your mind. It's not that okay, week one and two, we're using this week, three and four, we're adding just a tiny bit where you even don't have the possibility because such a rock rushed class, right? So again, like from an evidence based perspective, what do we need to shave a muscle, we need to have somewhere between five to 30 repetitions, 30 really being on the higher end, we need to progressively overload and we need to go close to failure or what feels like failure are those sets. And even though you feel like you're exhausting yourself with those classes, I would argue that in many times, you're not actually going with a weight that's getting you close to failure. And so that's, that's the other part here. But the the cortisol part really can't be understated. And that's what kind of woke me up. I mean, I also was facing a little bit of like an injury at the time, so I was actually more or less forced to stop with CrossFit for some time. And then started with the structure of strength training as per instruction of this Kosha was talking to me, and I will not lie the first three, four months were boring as heck, I actually thought I was like, because you leave the gym most of the time. And you feel still okay, you still feel like you can walk you still feel like you have good energy in the tank and that was new or different to me right? And that was actually like I actually thought I didn't give enough today this this cannot Can you give me like double the amount of work in this training program? Because I want to feel exhausted when I get home. But that's, it's such a backward thinking. But that's just the place that we're often used to. And we're used to that adrenaline high after the training, but nonetheless, stuck with the program. And then after a few months, I realized, okay, I'm actually starting to see a difference, oh, I'm actually starting to sleep better, I'm actually starting to feel like I have a little bit of energy left for the rest of my day, instead of finishing at the gym, and just like, being kind of trashed for the, for the afternoon. So it was, it was a combination of education, explanation, and like, Really, okay, this does have an evidence based background, like, I'm very much I am a person where it's like, show me the evidence, show me where this stems from what the research says. And then secondly, also, I mean, oftentimes, we can see all the research that we want, but we need to see and feel it ourselves. So I get that point. Also, when someone's like, Yeah, it sounds convincing. But my feelings don't lie. Oh, you know, I feel great. After this training, I feel shitty after that training. But what I will say here is, again, you need to give a time, you can't just say like, Hey, I've tried your new training program for a week or two, I'm not seeing a different difference. And I feel shitty after my workouts, I'm gonna go back to the way that I was training before, because I actually felt exhausted. And that's not well, that's not fair. But it's also just not effective. Because you're, essentially two weeks is not enough time for your cortisol to go down from that. And two weeks is also not enough time for any hypertrophy stimulation whatsoever. So I would just say, like, give it well, at least a month, after a month, you should feel differences in terms of sleep, but given more like three months or so. And then let's talk about it again. That would be my big, big recommendation here. But yeah, again, like I said, I get it when you're if you're coming from that perspective, I totally, totally get it. But again, what's your goal? Think about? What's your goal? And even in those instances, when you're like, tempted to go for a run instead? Or just go to your class, instead? Remind yourself what is my goal? What's my, what's my actual why, and don't get into that short term gratification, which it is, to an extent, I guess most people don't think of like in exercise classes and short term gratification. But yes, but think of your long term goals instead, we hear that so often, but it applies here as well.

Johan Vesters: 53:04

Yeah. So So we're coming up on the hour. So I wanted to ask you one final question, really. So related to this stuff. So let's say someone really wants to run. So they lead they like their cardio day, they want to keep their running. Thinking from like a muscle building perspective, right? This person wants to build muscle. They do like their running. How much would you give them? Right? How much would you be like, Hey, okay, cool. Let's let's do this much.

Lisa Franz: 53:34

It probably depends on what they how much they were doing previously, and how much of how important the, the quote unquote shaping is to them, I do think that something like a three day strength program paired with two or three times of running can work quite well still, if it's done it in a, in a strategic manner, meaning the person is programmed, programmed properly, the sense of giving your leg still enough rest, and so on. If you if it's someone who wants to do like a run on the same day as their strength training, I would always make sure that the strength training comes first, like we want to, since that's what we kind of want to focus on more. And in those instances, I would also say just really making sure that we're not in a calorie deficit, because it does often happen if we add that much more cardio, but people keep eating the same way. You know, you're again, you're not supplying your body with enough building blocks to build those muscles and to fuel your runs off of. But really, since we're talking more about about hypertrophy here, I would say, yeah, if you can keep it at two times, that would probably be good. And we could like ideally, maybe also, more things that are still a little bit power oriented, or you could do like like one minute sprint, two minutes lower run one minute sprint, that type of thing, or sled pushes or something like that. Like if you're saying hey, I still want to get work my cardiovascular system more for health wise, that would still be a good way to implement it.

Johan Vesters: 55:19

Cool. So it's not a marathon everyday done?

Lisa Franz: 55:22

No. That's what I would absolutely not do I guess the last thing that I will say to close off the lean, lean gaining chat or to like summarize, it is also that I did also really focus on recovery over these last few months. So really being a little bit more mindful of sleep and really being diligent with taking supplements and consistently and what can I find tuna on that front. And so overall, my strategies were like keeping the calorie surplus, somewhat minimal, but still effective, so that I would gain about half a kg or a pound per month. And secondly, was basically the majority of the increase in calories came from carbs, and mostly bunch that around training times. And thirdly, optimizing like digestion to help with that. So really, maybe sometimes more, easier to digest things, implementing more simple carbs on that front. And then fourth one being the training aspect, really, that should probably come, you know, this is in no particular order. But you know, what I mean, I'm really going goal focused and with with a good amount of intensity on there, or training hard, and then the recovery optimization, so those will be my five points, if someone is really lean, gaining focus, and I guess we can include the minimal eating out in there as well. But um, yeah, hopefully, this encouraged someone to do a bit of a lean gaining phase.

Johan Vesters: 57:01

I think I think it will, I think it's really cool. And that's why I wanted to have you on to talk about this stuff. Because I think it's cool to hear from like, a female who's going through Lean, gaining phase, the experience kind of like things to focus on, because, again, like coming from a dude, like, I could explain that, but I think it will be more convincing from a female, you know what I mean? So I think it's really cool that you're sharing that and that you're also you know, mentioning things you kind of run into. So yeah, thank you. I think this was great. Absolute pleasure. Do you want to share anything? Do you have any important updates? Anything coming up? Where can people find you?

Lisa Franz: 57:39

Um, yeah, I'm most active on Instagram. So it'll be nutrition coaching and life. And the Johan said, I also have a podcast, which is the nutrition and life podcast. And we also have a website nutrition coaching in life. So go check out some of our content and I try to provide some valuable information on there as well. But otherwise, thank you so much for having me on.

Johan Vesters: 58:02

Of course, thank you very much. Awesome, so we'll make sure to link that down below to listener. Thanks for listening. As always, if you enjoyed this episode, make sure to share a screenshot in your stories. Give us a quick rating Spotify or Apple and then we will talk to you again very soon.