Johan Vesters (00:01.322)
What's up and welcome back to the Talking Nutrition podcast. We are back with episode 84. Wanted to talk about what happens after fat loss. Then we talk about fat loss so much because it's one of the main goals. I mean, most people come to us with a fat loss goal every now and then is performance health, building muscle, which is a big one. And a lot of times we get people to eventually go to that. Let's talk about this stuff because I see a lot of people just focus on that. And that's also not

great. We also want to get out of the dieting mindset, because you're not gonna be dieting forever. And this is a very, very big misconception. A lot of people tend to think that after your fat loss phase, like that's, you know, that little, right? That's how you're supposed to be eating. But that's actually not true. You're supposed to go back to maintenance. Now, yes, you need to go on low calories during a weight loss phase. That's

Literally like a calorie deficit means you're getting Two little calories in for the amount that you're burning And that's why you burn body fat Because your body right it doesn't just stop burning calories over time it slows down in terms of like how much it burns right but It doesn't just do that from one day to the next like no like it's going to burn body fat To keep you alive. That's literally what it does Here's the thing though

A calorie deficit is a tool. And I feel like especially these days, it's very common to just, you know, and there's a lot of BTs who do this and fellow nutrition coaches too. And I get it. A lot of times it does come from a good place, but just throwing like calorie deficit, calorie deficit at everything, it's not the way to go. And yes, a calorie deficit is always needed to lose weight.

But what if someone comes from chronic dieting? Do they need a calorie deficit? What if someone really struggles with binge eating, emotional eating? I mean, the list goes on. Struggles with their weight. And if consistently for many, many years, we get people come to us who finally reach our goals after 10, 20, 30, 40 plus years of struggling with their weight. That's on the high end, but I've had that. So it's like.

Johan Vesters (02:31.134)
a long time. Like that's the point here. Like people struggle with this stuff for a long time. If you spend like multiple decades trying just about any diet under the sun, and of course we're not always consistently like always under eating, but you get it.

Do you think it's a good idea to then still diet? Or should we focus on eating enough? So today we are gonna talk about after the diet, what happens then. Because recently we touched on the pillars of a successful fat loss phase. It was last week. Before that, we talked about what to do before. And I always tell people like, you gotta do the pre-work. So this is assuming that you've done the pre-work.

You've gone through your transformation and you're now ready to go into where it honestly like goes wrong for the most part. It's the keeping it off part. That's why this episode is called like what happens after FedLaw. What happens? Like what's the plan? Maintenance is a difficult season for a lot of people.

It is boring. It's a little weird to, after sometimes years of, you know, like I said, decades, even chasing a weight loss goal, all of a sudden it's not the goal anymore. What do we do now? Let's think about this. Like if you're being active and we have a bunch of active people in our group, who also recently went into a fat loss phase, right? Um, and we'll talk about two examples here in a sec, but

they were kind of like wondering, so what's next? You know, and I do think like you're gonna know what's next eventually, but we're not there yet. So again, assuming here that we've lost weight, we're now going to get into the keeping it off part. And before we get into it, please do me a quick massive favor, small massive favor. Go to your Apple, your Spotify, drop us a five-star rating. It actually does help us a whole lot, it

Johan Vesters (04:40.242)
like yourself who need this help. If you like watching us on YouTube, of course, go there. Subscribe, like my videos. Honestly, just comment on any video. And if you ever have any suggestions for a Q&A, even just a topic request, hit me up either on YouTube or directly via Spotify. There's a Q&A box or Instagram. There's a bunch of places you can drop your questions and suggestions. But let's have a chat. Always here to help.

So that rating will be massively appreciated. Now let's get into it, shall we? What happens after the fat loss phase is exactly where people go wrong most of the time. We have an international worldwide issue going on in terms of obesity, being overweight. It keeps, I mean, if you look, I recently looked at the rates and it's continuing to become more of an issue.

doesn't really seem to be slowing down either. So I'm not looking forward to that, but hey, like we're helping one person at a time. And then hopefully here, right? As you are helping us grow the show by dropping that quick five-star rating, we're impacting more lives. And like I say that jokingly, but I mean that, right? I recently mentioned this, like sharing this nutrition stuff is, it's a passion. I love what I do, but it's also a responsibility. Because like I said, we do help people after multiple decades of struggling.

this shit works so we need to get this out to more people it's actually super important what happens after that fat loss phase what do you do we don't have or let me not say don't but let me say this i don't think right because i don't want to speak in absolutes i don't think that it's a weight loss problem per se i think it's a weight loss maintenance problem if you go online

And you find those crazy diets, the low carb, they cut out all sugars, the Keto's, they had the carnivores that now are saying that you should cut out your fruits and vegetables and fiber is not important. I mean, what I got into there is like 11 years ago, I struggle with my weight. It was the same misinformation, confusing documentaries, you know, marketing from supplement companies. The list goes on. It's.

Johan Vesters (07:07.39)
It's actually like misinformation wise, it's probably the same right now, but in terms of like the exposure, because we all have smartphones now, 11 years ago that wasn't the case. We're exposed to more bullshit, if that makes sense. Unfortunately, and that makes it more difficult. I just had a call with someone and she's like, hey, it's so difficult to find out that stuff on your own because it is confusing. There's a lot of misinformation out there. So going back to the weight loss maintenance problem,

People don't know what to do. It's, hey, I'm gonna do this quick restrictive diet and I'll just go back to normal. That's usually how it goes. So hey, I'm gonna go back to normal. It's a quick four week thing, a couple months even, if that, if they can stick to it. And then they fall off, why? Not because of that diet, they usually lose weight. It's that weight regain. It's a damn weight regain that so many people go through. It's that yo-yo dieting. Like I said, for...

10, 20, 30 plus years, 40. It's a long time, long time struggle with this stuff.

So instead of just going back to normal, I always wonder like what normal was, right? Because this might sting a little bit, but your old normal is what got you here in the first place. So we are not going to go back there. And I'm saying that with the best intentions. It's maybe a little confronting, but bear with me.

Hopefully throughout this process, as we recently talked about, we do the pre-work, we go through that transformation. Hopefully you're learning with me. You're creating new skills, new tools. You're changing yourself, the way you do stuff. You're, you're creating a new identity. And that sounds cheesy to say, you know, but you are creating the new you, the 2.0 version. The new version who is active, who eats healthy, who is not going to go back to normal in quotes.

Johan Vesters (09:03.618)
but who is able to be flexible and healthy at the same time and maintain the results and build muscle and do whatever. Right? Work out, look like you work out, feel amazing, better energy. That's the person you are creating here.

From experience, and we're going to talk about reverse dieting here. From experience, the best way, in my opinion, for the vast majority of the people that we work with, I'm being very specific here, right? Would be through doing a reverse diet, going back to maintenance. Reverse dieting is not magic. And there are discussions online where bigger names in the space, they say it's completely unnecessary.

And they have fair points. A lot of times though, these are bodybuilders who are looking for what's on paper considered optimal because a reverse diet is more time spent in account of redeficit, which basically means you're undating for a longer time, which obviously is not optimal for muscle gain. We know that. So to kind of explain their point why they say, reverse dieting is not necessary. True, it's not necessary technically.

However, their reasoning is because it's like more time and a deficit is less time building muscle. And that is true. That's less time being in a bulk. However, we work with normal people like myself, like you listening.

most normal people are not going to be bulking and cutting forever. We're going to be chilling at Maintain for quite a bit. We're going to spend a lot of time not dieting. We're going to for sure build some muscle. But it shouldn't just be, in my opinion, just be cutting or bulking. It's not sustainable and for the vast majority of the people with real lives

Johan Vesters (11:06.57)
um, with jobs and stress and whatever it is, continuing to do either of those phases consistently, because let me tell you this, when you do a bulk falling off is actually worse than cutting. When you eat a little bit more, when you're cutting, you just lose weight slower. If you're in the bulk and you gain weight faster, you're going to gain more body fat. So it's equally important to be super dialed in both phases.

Johan Vesters (11:35.838)
Most people are not going to be able to stick that longterm. Um, and that's okay. But I think we should go to maintenance for the most part. Most people will start there. And then once we get people, cause a lot of times we're looking at kind of like two weight loss phases, depending on the person, um, I'd say for the most part, it kind of requires two, if you have quite a bit to lose at myself in the past. Again, that's okay.

let's go in two rounds, we do a reverse, but in between we do maintenance, right? But how do we do that? Like how do we do a reverse diet? And why is it so good to do that? Like why do I think it's the best way to do it? And I don't even like saying the best way because that's also kind of like labeling it. But I should probably say, I'm trying to like use the right words here, you know.

I don't want to kind of mislead people and say absolutely everyone needs to do this all the time. In my experience it's just likely a better idea to transition and that's the biggest thing, transitioning out. With most things that goes for your journey in general when you get started, you're not just going to change everything all at once. We're not going to cut your calories in half day one. Like no.

Same way, we probably don't want to just go from, you know, one day to the next, boom, more like, you know, double your food almost, maybe not double, but a lot more. Probably not great from a digestive standpoint. A lot of times, by the way, if you've been dieting for a little while, then you are going to struggle maybe eating more. So you're going to have to get used to that. A lot of people are a little afraid to regain weight. So it's also like psychological.

Johan Vesters (13:33.197)
Things too, like the transition, like I see that work best in terms of keeping you in check.

That's the biggest thing as well. You wanna just make sure that you're like, you don't assume that you're done after that fat loss phase, because you're not. And doing a reverse diet allows you, and hey, by the way, you can do a very long, slow reverse diet, depending on the person, and you can do a quick one.

Either way we gotta increase calories. And what we're gonna do just depends, and I'll give you some guidelines here. Soon.

But when we go step by step, it's much easier to do. It's a little less scary for people. It keeps you in check. Like I said, it's not just like, Oh, well, I guess I can just go to maintenance pizza every single day. Like, no, don't want to do that. We want to make sure that we kind of keep you going for a little bit more. In terms of staying like really damn consistent. And then once we are at maintenance, but only at maintenance.

will we slowly step away from stuff like tracking? Cause that's not a lifestyle thing. By that time you've gotten their results, maintained them. And then of course it's time to maybe spend some time not tracking preferably most of the time. No.

Johan Vesters (15:02.886)
With reverse dieting, it's more an art than an exact science. I don't want you to listen to these things here and be like, well, I'm gonna do exactly this. It's gonna depend. Some people gain weight, some people lose weight, some people maintain their weight. That could happen any week we add food. Remember too that adding a little bit of weight does not always have to mean that we are gaining body fat. So that's a big one. There's more food in your stomach, which literally weighs more.

There's a little bit of more water retention usually with that. Um, maybe even do the salt as well. Hey, sometimes I do see this every now and then sometimes people digestion wise need to get used to it. So let's take our time there. Let's go with, you know, smaller steps. But what do I mean by smaller steps? The first step is still bigger.

What we usually do, let's say you're at the end of your fat loss phase, we look at your calories, where you've been for maybe the last two to four weeks. I kind of look at that as kind of like, okay, this is where we've been. Then I'll calculate your expected maintenance calories. And then we go halfway, we jump halfway between those two points, where we end your cut and your expected maintenance. Trust me guys, like that's already a bunch more food. A lot.

You're going to be pretty happy with that. You're going to be stoked. Let me say this too. Stick to your whole foods. You don't want to just add a whole bunch of stuff. That's a little more process. And I know we always preach 820 and I will continue to do so. But at this very point, you are most hungry. Your energy is the lowest. You have probably less willpower and giving into temptations is very, very tempting.

So you're way more likely to overdo it here. So that being said, especially for like satire reasons and stuff, let's make sure that we also keep food quality in check. And then maybe say in a week or two, three, even sometimes, let's feel free to add some fun stuff. That's totally cool. Cause you also deserve it because you just showed yourself that you can prepare, right? Without just jumping into a fat loss phase, you build those habits, et cetera.

Johan Vesters (17:25.686)
You go to that threat loss phase through, sorry, and you make sure you keep it off now. Okay, maintenance, okay, yes, absolutely. Let's, in quotes, celebrate without overdoing it, right? But we can absolutely do that. Have some more fun stuff, that's fine. Maintenance is very forgiving too. But as we do that first step, of course, that's only the first one. If you're, and if people watching, right, if you're here, you're ending your...

fat loss phase and your expected maintenance is up here, you jump halfway, that's still a deficit. It's just less of a deficit. And that's kind of like where in quotes, like the magic lies when it comes to reverse dieting. It's people eat more, but they can lose more weight. Why is it? Because they are in a deficit still, just less. So you might lose weight slower. Some people, a little bit faster than others.

because what your body can do, and we'll do another maybe episode of metabolic adaptations, but here's the thing, your body adapts up or down. That's normal, it always happens. And we should not be afraid of that. It's mostly just need your non-exercise activity. But it's definitely also, if it's longer term, like it could be hormonal, it could be a couple of things, right? So you wanna keep that in mind. But here's the thing, some people,

basically like adapt a little quicker, maybe like overcompensate. And that's where sometimes as you bring up those calories, your body may actually start to burn more calories again too. Sometimes way more even than the extra calories that you're eating. I know that sounds a little vague. It's a little difficult maybe to explain that way without kind of like showing you on like on paper kind of, but I hope you get that, right? The body adapts up and down.

And on the way up, as you slowly increase calories, because that's usually the best way. If you want to do that control, like that's what you want to do. Sometimes your body's overcompensates, you burn more calories, which could actually increase that deficit again. No, either way though, what I like to do is the following. Let's say after that first initial adjustment, you want to see at least a week of data.

Johan Vesters (19:52.438)
Weigh in every single day. Get the average. What happens on an average basis, right? I'm not looking at one or even three weigh-ins average, full week. Let's look at the average. Hey, we lost more weight, cool. Let's add 100 calories. And I recommend usually doing a combination of carbs and fat in that initial adjustment. And then I like to go high with carbs as much as possible. And then we'll add some fats every now and then throughout this process based on personal preference.

But we got people into the gym lifting weights. For that reason, so we can build some muscle, plus carbs tend to go more towards energy output, we like to go with that for the most part. So maybe if you lose weight, maybe 100 calories. Maybe if your weight stays the same, let's add some. Maybe like 10 carbs. I know it sounds very little, but it's like 40 calories. And then if your weight's

Dots go up, but very little, I do the same thing. 10 carbs. If you gain weight, I would wait a week. Kind of depending on your weight. Because here's one thing too that I do with people. If we see there's a fluctuation at the very beginning of the week, because we increase, there's a fluctuation, and slowly over time, throughout that week even, we see like lower weights, like every single day almost. Then usually I will still add.

It's a guys, it's a big trust the process moment here. Now, next up.

Future weeks. Honestly, I would kind of keep doing the same thing. Same steps. If you lose weight, a hundred calories. And I'm giving general guidelines here. Again, I don't want you to just follow this to a T it's going to highly depend. I don't know how you're going to respond and you'll only know once you go in. So I like to play it safe rather than rushing it. Depending on the case, if we're really coming from like under eating and stuff.

Johan Vesters (21:59.218)
And you know, this is like, let's say the initial phase where people are coming from chronic dieting, we might, you know, bump up way faster.

But okay, stick to those rules, roughly. 100 calories if you're losing. Maybe go with 40 if you wanna play it safe. Sometimes you add 10 carbs, sometimes five fats, sometimes both. And this is where, again, you wanna take your time and I always recommend doing this with a coach. Because what I do see in the practice and from experience, it's like, it's hard to stick to that on your own.

It's hard when you are on your own to not make emotional decisions when you see that skill go up, because it will go up a little, but there will be fluctuations. It would be really, really naive to think that you are going to lose weight and say the exact number you finished your cut at.

We can keep it very close and sometimes even lower throughout this process. Again, people respond differently, but let me say this again. It is naive to think that after losing, let's say 10 to 15 kilos, you know, what is that 20 to 30 pounds, it's naive to then say, or to then assume that you'll stay that exact week, you know, same weight.

And that over those weeks, you are not gonna gain a few kilos, a few pounds. You very likely will. So I want you to be prepared for that. And it's usually not body fat. And if it is, it's very little, very little. If you do this control. So play it safe if you want, but you're gonna be okay.

Johan Vesters (23:53.762)
But again, it is hard to do on your own if you don't have the experience yet. And maybe just go through this with a coach, with me or someone else, you know, whoever you vibe the best with, but like, have a coach do a reverse guide with you. Have them show you how they do it. Go to maintenance, move away from tracking if you want to there. Maybe continue on your own. But I think that is usually the best for people long-term to learn. One second.

Johan Vesters (24:24.786)
All right, guys, I'm completely just yawning over here. This is unacceptable. Now, it was early, early morning and Jesus. Okay. Sorry about that. Sorry. It's been a week, guys. Sorry. So, so back to, you know, the weight gain. There's just probably going to be a little, and that's okay. I want you to know that losing 10, 15 and.

gaining one or two, three, whatever. Like that's a pretty good deal still. Right. So especially here, I want you to keep taking your photos, keep taking your measurements. Pay attention to this stuff.

Now going into maintenance and long-term kind of like thinking like what's going to be, what's, you know, what happens then? Because I have two people in our group. Uh, one person who lost weight and she's just going to be maintaining and someone else who's, you know, lost the weight has been maintaining for a couple of months now is maintaining for the rest of the year and will then do another fatless face and then maintenance.

they were both kind of worried, not worried, sorry, wondering what's next. Like what's, and I told her right away, I was like, I'm pretty sure you're gonna, by that time you will know. We all get new goals. Um, it could be performance related muscle, whatever it is, maybe just health, that's totally cool. But we'll kind of know, I think by that time. And I got a question too, like, Hey, like, so what happens if you kind of stop progressing?

but I don't think you're going to really start progressing with your workouts. At least not for a very, very long time. If you train with good technique, you really push hard and you go to a gym, you have enough weights available. Like you can keep going for a really long time. I don't think we're ever going to be done because Hey, look at it this way. Even if for whatever reason, you're kind of at a spot where it's really difficult to keep building.

Johan Vesters (26:32.222)
Well, it's going to still be very difficult then too, or maybe not difficult, but it's going to still be a lot of hard work to maintain what you've already achieved. So that's a big one too. Let's not forget. You still got to keep the work up and this, that's the whole idea about this whole process here, this whole podcast, specifically, and I mean this episode, specifically speaking, FET loss maintenance. Like that's what we're talking about here, but the concept is the same.

You do work to get somewhere and then you do the work to maintain what you've achieved. You're not going to be done working out. You're not going to be done eating healthy. There is no going back to normal. We're creating a new normal here. We are going to go back to maintenance where you will have some more flexibility and we're not going to do, you know, you're tracking always and those kinds of things.

But I want to kind of stick to you like 30, 35 minutes. So in terms of the first person I mentioned, she lost a whole bunch of weight. We're reversing now. She's going to be in maintenance. I mean, for the rest of the year, we're reversing now for the rest of the month and maybe a couple weeks next month. And then it's just maintenance, just maintenance for now. Just eating healthy, good workouts, good running. She's into running as well. Good energy, right? Feeling good. And for the other person.

She's my age. She's actually 33 as well. Um, and she's like, well before joining us, like she had never focused on eating enough. She had never even thought of kind of like not dieting or at least when it comes to her adult life. So she was like, well, she mentioned this once. She's like, well before you're on and I never thought about maintenance. And that's exactly why we are at maintenance now for multiple months, like four plus months.

And it's a long time. And this is someone who struggled with her weight her whole adult life. And with, you know, weird ideas around, you know, exercise and diets and stuff. And it's kind of like in the family, but she's broken, you know, that cycle now, which is super cool, but that means that, you know, we're going to be maintenance for quite a while now. And then we'll go for round two. And she now will have the tools and, you know, systems in place and the skills. So it's going to be like.

Johan Vesters (28:52.566)
It'll be an effective phase no matter what, like she's good. But because maintenance is so important and because I also, which is one of the reasons I want to keep her at maintenance for the rest of the year, it's not necessarily any like magic when it comes to metabolism. Yes. Our metabolism needs to kind of restore. We want to build muscle, those kinds of things. Absolutely. But one of the biggest benefits in her case is that we are not in that dieting mindset. We are

practicing not dieting, and that's so key. Because if you're listening right now, and you're like really focused on that fat loss goal, I do want you to picture a time in the future where you're not gonna have that fat loss goal, when your fat loss is gonna be done. And for some people, you know what? For some people that even gives them a little anxiety, because you're so attached to dieting. And then I'm not putting you on the spot here, but like think about that, because that's an issue too, right? Think about that. You're gonna have to do maintenance.

you want to be successful. You have to. That's in between fat loss phases. That's long after you've reached your fat loss goals. Like before your fat loss phase even. Before, in between, and after. There needs to be maintenance and that it's a non-negotiable if you want to be successful. If you want to be left with a crappy metabolism, hormones all out of whack, consistent hunger, right? The list goes on.

bad relationship with food, be my guest and skip maintenance.

For people who are not watching on YouTube, I'm actually laughing as I'm saying this. I can't write. I know it sounds very direct, but...

Johan Vesters (30:35.882)
I'm serious though, right? We need to really take maintenance serious and it's difficult to do so. I know that. I've been there. I've gone through those cycles where I lost a little bit of weight and then I fucked up doing maintenance and I never really got to that spot. And what happened for many, many years, this is even after I lost 30 kilos, right? Almost 60 pounds, 55, whatever it is. Even then I would do a diet and slowly maybe gain a little.

And then go back slowly gain a little, then I actually learned, but like that's so common too. Maintenance is not a, like maintaining is not gaining, right? Where slowly that weight creeps up like, no, I think you're still gonna be in charge of, keeping your habits up and checking every now and then, just making sure. I mean, guys, you check your bank account as well. You check every now and then and what's in the bank. Do the same thing with your weight.

After your fat loss fades, like I said, you're not going to be done. And they do want to wrap it up here. But again, I can't say it like, um, I'm going to repeat this over the next. Months for sure. As we were heading into this, you know, holiday season, you better be planning for maintenance during those holidays, because it's going to be very tricky to try to diet through Christmas through Thanksgiving. And guess what? We don't have a single client who will do that.

Every single client of us will be at maintenance during the holidays. So I want you to know that, right? I know we have a lot of people listening at different stages of their journey.

Don't diet through Christmas. Don't diet through Thanksgiving. Give yourself that break. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. And we're gonna talk more about this stuff soon. I'll give you some tips. A plan for maintenance phases, and this is the perfect time leading to, you know, leading up to like the new year. The time is perfect. Like we have a bunch of people reverse dieting now, couple of people dieting, but reverse dieting now, so that we are

Johan Vesters (32:45.534)
at maintenance before the actual holidays, not like two seconds before, but like a week or two at least, so that we're there, so that we can take a break, so that we have lots of food, so that we can get good workouts in, use that extra fuel, have a season where we can eat plenty, work on a healthy relationship with food, teach you how to include these moments without guilt, without stress. And then, hey, if you ever referred to fat loss goal.

Absolutely. In January, after New Year's, boom, we can get started. Depending on the person, right? But in January speaking, it's October right now, October 20th, if you're gonna do maintenance now, just focus on good work arts and stuff, there's really no reason like why you should not go into a fat loss phase in January. But again, like I said, maintenance needs to happen. Before, in between fat loss phases,

as well as after.

So reverse dieting is gonna be the transition. We know it's a little bit of kind of like a double topic episode here, but the reverse diet is what's gonna get you there to that point. It's a small step by step, right? Every now and then, where you add some calories and then you see what happens next week. So keep tracking, keep tracking your weight, especially your measurements. I've seen a lot of people recently because we actually right now like we're...

We have a lot of people doing reverse diets right now, like at this very moment. And more than half of the people continue to lose further body fat quite significantly still. Some people lose some and you know what? I currently only have one person who just getting a little, but it's also the first week only. So we're kind of going to have to see what happens, but that's also normal.

Johan Vesters (34:45.418)
So that transition is key. The actual maintenance phase is key. Let's make sure we do those kinds of things. And this goes back to our three-phase system that we always take people through. It's like, hey, we prepare, we go through that transformation, we make sure we go back to eating enough, and hey, we can repeat that cycle. If you have further goals, absolutely, let's plan for that, and we will. So I hope that kind of makes sense. We should probably talk about periodization soon as well. I'd like to do that towards the end of the year.

So stuff that's coming up, periodization, we're gonna do a part two of our digestion deep dive that we did last Monday or this Monday. And then I think it's gonna be good to really, like kind of be early when it comes to preparing for the holidays. And by the way, this is not gonna be something strict or specific. It's mostly a mindset thing. I will say this right away or already.

that's going to allow you to kind of just go in with a plan, kind of know what you're going to be doing, thinking back to previous years. Hey, what went well? What needs more work? What do I know, you know, could be done differently? Because that's really the goal. We just want you to be feeling good, mostly make healthy choices, but we'll talk about that. Hope you like this episode. Full transparency. I'm a little tired today.

So apologies for the yawn right in the middle. I could not hold it back. But I'm gonna take a nice chill evening, get some more sleep today, go out this weekend. And yeah, we'll catch up soon. Back again with another episode on Monday. Once again, thank you so much for listening. If you haven't yet, before closing this app, go to Apple, Spotify, quick five-star rating. Do us a quick, huge favor, and then I'll chat to you soon.

Cool, we'll see you then.