Talking Nutrition

41 - Kasey Jo Orvidas, PhD - Fixed vs Growth Mindset, Behavior Change, and more...

April 17, 2023 Kasey Jo Orvidas, PhD
Talking Nutrition
41 - Kasey Jo Orvidas, PhD - Fixed vs Growth Mindset, Behavior Change, and more...
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

Your mindset plays a massive role in your health and fitness journey. Anywhere from how healthy you eat, to how often you exercise, and more.. your mindset is what ultimately dictates your success. However, it's not talked about enough in the space. Which is why this week we are joined by Dr. Kasey Jo Orvidas

Kasey has a background in mindset and behavior change, and has a PhD in psychology. While she spent nearly 5 years doing research in the mindset lab getting her PhD, she also built her health and fitness coaching company KJO Coaching, and created the 'Health Mindset Coaching Certification' course.

In this episode you'll learn all about the differences between a fixed and a growth mindset, how to cultivate a growth mindset, how stress and self control do NOT go hand in hand, building better habits, and much more.


If you love this episode, feel free to share it with a friend, and make sure to check out Kasey's stuff via any of the following links:
IG: @coachkaseyjo
IG: @healthmindsetcert
KJO Coaching: https://www.kjocoaching.com/
HMCC: https://www.healthmindsetcert.com/


TIMESTAMPS:
0:00 Introduction - Kasey Jo Orvidas, PhD
8:35 Fixed vs Growth Mindset
15:19 How To Cultivate A Growth Mindset
23:21 Why It's Important For Coach & Client To CONNECT
27:55 Stress vs Self Control
35:42 Setting Up Your Environment For Behavior Change
42:52 How Long Does It Take To Create A New Habit?
49:45 Outro - KJO Coaching / HMCC


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Johan Vesters:

Hey, what's up guys, and welcome back to Talking Nutrition episode 41 Today, today we're joined by a very special guests. We both met her last year, we're seeing I would like, kind of want to get more into the mindset side of things, you know, and we were like, Let's do a course together again. So we ended up doing the AMCC. And I will say, that literally changed the way I coached. Like massively it's crazy, like, honestly is gonna thank you right off the bat, like the second half of like, 2022 like going through that course. I was like, holy shit like everything is my whole way of coaching is changing for the better, you know? And I know Kristine feels like that, too. So first of all, thank you.

Kasey Jo:

Yeah. Oh, my God. That's amazing.

Kristine Andali:

Yeah, we did like half a podcast on it.

Kasey Jo:

That's perfect. I need this podcast. So so I can like post it on the sales page for hfcc.

Kristine Andali:

Yeah, totally.

Johan Vesters:

Go for it, use it. So that being said, Casey, introduce yourself. Who are you? What do you do? Why are we here?

Kasey Jo:

Yeah. Hi, guys. My name is Casey. So my background is in mindset, behavior change and psychology actually have a PhD in psychology. And I spent the duration of my PhD specifically researching mindset for health behavior change. So essentially looking at how our mindsets play a role in how healthy we eat, and how often we exercise. So when I quite literally was in the mindset lab for nearly five years getting my PhD and doing this research, while also being a health and fitness coach. So it's very cool for me, because at the time, as I was in the lab, doing the research, I was also in the wild, like working with people one on one. So I was able to kind of test things out in real time in a way. But from there, I guess I'll just like fast forward to where I'm at today, I have a health and fitness coaching company. So it's me plus four other amazing women on my team that are helping me do the coaching at this point. And we obviously very heavily focused on mindset as a massive pillar in our coaching business. But my goal is that all coaches use mindset as a massive pillar in their coaching businesses. So the other half of what I do is coach other coaches, mainly through the health mindset coaching certification. That's H MCC what we were talking about before. And we've had at this point in time, over 400 coaches graduate from H MCC, which is so cool to me for all the reason that you are saying Johan is that so many people recognize that this really is the missing piece. And they're coaching but they didn't know it until they went through H MCC or at least start to experience some of my content. And it's just so cool to me. Because sure, I can do what I can with my own health and fitness coaching business. But once I can help other coaches, my that domino effect is just so much greater, right? So we can reach so many more people, if I'm helping even two coaches, and each of those coaches have 50 clients. So that's 100 clients that I'm helping just through two coaches. So very cool that I get to do what I get to do, and I'm excited to talk about it more today.

Johan Vesters:

Amazing. So just just before we hit record two, like I said, you know, not everyone kind of values that another field like and as I told you just now like, I was like, I think the only dude or like one or two that I can remember at least you know, during our first call, it was like, oh, shit is on girls, you know, it's so difficult. It's so typical, because like, as coaches just all across the board, like we got to do better. I feel like you know, as industry because that mindset stuff, which is actually like the difficult shit to work through. It's just not mentioned, like not talked about enough. You know what I mean? So I'm very happy that you're here today.

Kasey Jo:

Yeah, it's true. And unfortunately, it as you're mentioning, there's not a ton of male coaches that go through H MCC. And so we're kind of talking about off air before we hit record here. And yeah, I think with your class, Johan, there may have been literally you and maybe two other guys. And here's the thing, too, is sometimes there's sometimes there's five to 10 of them, but then they don't speak up, they keep their cameras off things like that, because they're like, Man, I don't really fit in here, you know, but it's unfortunate because there is no reason why this should be like a female type of coaching. Like everyone benefits from understanding client psychology and adherence issues and behavior change. Like it's really is the foundational principles of everything, like you guys said, you went through FMS, so you have this like strong understanding in metabolism and physiology and things like that, which is so so so important. But if you have all that knowledge, it kind of falls flat. If you don't know how to actually communicate with your clients and how to help them from a behavior change in mind. exact perspective. So it really is the foundation for everything else.

Kristine Andali:

That that was literally me were like, I have all this very complex knowledge with like hormones and like gut health and like all of this, but that was a missing piece for me. And I knew it. And it was something that like, I it was always in the back of my head. Like I remember reaching out to like, sigh it because I knew he had like a background in psychology. And I'm like asking him, you know, where can I learn more? And I just felt like that was the missing piece. And then I didn't really realize to what extent until I did H MCC. And I think you had a workshop before HMC C two and I did it. And I was like, oh, man, like, I cannot wait to get into this. And then I like right away. So Sarah is she's like a mentor of H MCC, like in H MCC. Right. So I knew like she had followed me and I started following her. So we started to talk. And I think it was like the second week into h MCC. I messaged her and I was like, Oh my gosh, like, I want to delete a ton of my content. Like, I'm so embarrassed that like, the stuff I was putting out, it was like, like, I'm like, Oh my gosh. And so it really, it really made me like, look inwards with my content. And I'm so much like more aware of what I'm posting. Because when you don't understand that mindset piece, like, there's actually content you can put out there that really brings no value to people, you know, like you think it is, but like it's not doing much for them. Because it's not going into the behavior change in the mindset about why people are doing certain things, you know, and so yeah, it was just such a game changer. That way, and so that's why we wanted to bring Casey on today. Because I mean, I just I still feel like this is this is a topic that just really isn't talked on a lot. So

Kasey Jo:

or like what you're saying is that sometimes it's talked about but not from like the right way either or if it's just like hashtag positive vibes or Yeah, totally about things or, you know, like find a good in situations like that's not actual help like that actually helpful from a mindset perspective, right. And it's not that like, Kristine, things that you're posting were like, actually, like damaging, but that can happen to right, where people are posting things. And they don't realize that they're actually encouraging a fixed mindset in people to just by saying certain, certain statements like if, like, just things that you don't realize are related to like not changing or not being able to change.

Kristine Andali:

Okay, so that was a good segue into what we kind of want to talk about next, which is defining a fixed versus growth mindset. Because I feel like there's confusion there, or like people think they have a growth mindset. So yeah, what's the difference there?

Kasey Jo:

Yeah, this is great timing, because the post I made yesterday was essentially like, Oh, you think you have a growth mindset, but you are actually still thinking this way. And you're doing this thing? And a number of people might comment section for like, oh, geez, okay, well, here, I thought I had a growth mindset. But yeah, so a couple big ones that I like to talk about are feedback, setbacks and success. This is like a good way to start to really think like, okay, many of you are listening think I have a growth mindset? For sure, right. But if you hear some of these things, you can see where maybe some of your fixed mindset starts to show up. And don't feel bad about that. Because everyone has a little bit of a fixed mindset. To some degree, I was literally a researcher in the mindset lab for nearly five years, they still have a fixed mindset. In some areas, it does still show up, right? So when it comes to feedback, someone with a growth mindset is going to see that as like constructive criticism, right? Like, if I want the feedback, tell me how I can be better tell me how I can improve tell me what I'm doing incorrectly. So I can actually get better at what I'm trying to do here. With a fixed mindset. It's more likely that you get defensive and tried to kind of explain why you did things the way that you did, rather than actually taking the feedback and thinking it as an opportunity to improve. So that's the big one. Like if you even in the back of your mind, someone's giving you feedback and you think to yourself, oh, well, they don't really know what they're talking about. Or like, well, I did it this way for a reason like, that is very much a fixed mindset way of thinking. So step up axe is another big one. How you respond to setbacks can be very clear as to whether or not you have a growth or a fixed mindset in that area. So a setback could be something like from a weight loss perspective, right? Like maybe you go a month without seeing the scale move, or you have a weekend where you definitely like blew your macros. And that could feel like a setback to you. So how do you respond to those things, some people with a fixed mindset are going to start seeing it as essentially just evidence that they're not actually cut out for doing this health and fitness stuff. And that maybe they're really clearly now it just goes to show not the type of person to track macros or to be consistent, or you always knew that you couldn't actually lose the weight and keep it off type of thing, where someone with their growth mindset would think to themselves, okay, so something I did triggered me to overeat this weekend or something happened that made everything play out the way it did, like what was that kind of like putting on the investigator type of hat and thinking like, okay, so what went on? And what can I learn from this situation? So it doesn't happen again, versus seeing it as like, Okay, well, I did that. And now I'm screwed. And now just goes to show that I just can't do this kind of stuff. So that's a big one, for sure. And then success, and success I'm referring to is the success of other people, like how do you respond to the success of other people, someone with a fixed mindset, maybe like scrolling their Instagram feed and coming across that, like, Girl from high school who lost 100 pounds and has this big, amazing life now, and with a fixed mindset may start to think like, she just got lucky. Or she always had good genetics anyway, or something just got handed to her somehow, some shape or form, it was easier for her. And you with a fixed mindset are thinking like, well, I can't do that. Because XYZ, like there's a reason she was able to that I can't. Some other growth mindset, on the other hand, is going to see the same person and think entirely differently about the situation, that I wonder what she did in order to lose 100 pounds and keep it off. Like she's been so successful, she really turned her life around that is so inspiring, and makes me want to do those things, too. Maybe I should reach out to her and see what she did, and see if maybe there's something that I can pull from her success. That would also work for me, you can see just like how, between feedback setbacks and successes, these are just three things, right? How the person with the growth mindset is clearly more likely to be successful, because of the perspective that they're taking in these situations, versus the person with a fixed mindset is clearly more likely to not be successful, long term. Right? So those are a few that I like to point out, because I think they're the people out there who may be thinking like, oh, yeah, I have a growth mindset. Of course, they do, you know, can hear those things and go like, Oh, shit, like, maybe not so much. But all said and done kind of like the overarching theme here is that someone with a growth mindset truly does believe that they can change and improve in whatever area we're speaking to, right. And something that's important to note, too, is that mindsets are domain specific, which means you can have a growth mindset in one area and have a totally fixed mindset and another. So you can have a growth mindset about your ability to lose weight, but have a really strong fixed mindset about your ability to find a partner, right? So they don't always go hand in hand. And I see that talked about incorrectly a lot. And that like, oh, let's sort of like mix growth mindset. And like this big, like overarching thing that you either have it or you don't when the reality is it really is dependent on the thing that we're talking about.

Kristine Andali:

Yeah, I was gonna ask you that. Because I even like myself, I feel like I have a pretty good. I feel like I have a growth mindset when it comes to like, my business, which is something that I worked out a lot because I felt like I used to have a fixed mindset. But then there's things like, in my personal life that I can I talk in a fixed mindset type of way, where like, I'm like, this is just how I am or, you know, it's how I've always been, like that kind of talk. And I'm glad that I have the awareness to like, see that. But yeah, you can totally have a growth mindset in this part of your life and a Fixed Work growth or a fixed mindset in this part of your life.

Johan Vesters:

Yeah, so let's think about that, right? Because you're totally right. Like, you could be totally in like a growth mindset, you know, plays on one hand and then still have like that one little thing there. We're very fixed. Well, let's bring this kind of back to like the client, for example. How will we take someone from a fixed mindset to a growth mindset because I think that's also like that's actually the tricky part. Right? I Actually cultivating that mindset.

Kasey Jo:

Yeah, that is the golden question. Isn't it? Like everyone who's listening to like, Okay, I see where my fixed mindset is, what do I do about it? Dr. Casey? So, ya know, it's it's tough. And I do think I something that Kristine just said is really the first step and is really extremely important and probably undervalued is becoming more aware of where your fixed mindset shows up, right? Like Kristine, you would have had no chance ever of changing the fixed mindset that you have about some of those personal life factors. If you weren't aware of where it's showing up, right? You can't improve what you don't know needs improving. So that is really truly the first step. It's super boring, and no one wants to hear it like okay, just become more aware like great. That's, that sounds like fun, but it's true. And honestly, sometimes I think people avoid doing some of that work too, because it is uncomfortable like Kristine, you could probably not to keep putting you on the hot seat here. But you could probably attest to this, like, it's not super comfortable to like think like, oh man, the way that I'm thinking about that thing, like always, using the words always and never got I did I really just think like, say that out loud, that I'm that type of person like that doesn't feel good to recognize those things. So people are very likely to want to skip this first extremely important step. And just get to like the hacks and the tips and the strategies and the self help books and things like that. But the reality is you've kind of just need to sit with your own shit and like find it in order to actually change it. So that's what I would say is like before anything like really start to like, go on a fixed mindset, hunt, spend some time the next 24 to 48 hours. And just pay attention to when you are using those terms, like I always do this, or I can never do that, or I've never been able to do this, or I've always been this type of person. And just see like where you are using that language, or maybe even go back to some of the stuff I was saying about feedback, setbacks and success. Pay attention, write it down, put it somewhere. And just notice, because honestly, sometimes just becoming aware, and just noticing and getting a better idea is enough to start just like enough to start the shifting, because you're more easily able to recognize where it's showing up. So you can start to switch it in the moment, which would kind of be the next step. But first, I'd say don't change anything, don't do anything, just pay attention. And literally, like dedicate yourself to that fixed mindset hunt for a little bit and see where it starts to show up.

Kristine Andali:

Yeah, and, like, within coaching, this was like a whole another piece to it. Because I think like with trying to help someone with more of a fixed mindset, and like these things pop up, whether it's like, you know, their stress eating or like, you know, something like that, I think us as coaches, I know me personally, I have to try really, really hard to like sit on my hands and not give clients like try and give them a solution right away to something, it's more or less, okay, let's kind of like, talk about it, you know, build more awareness around it start to observe, instead of just trying to come up with a solution right away. And that's like a huge piece in the awareness type of thing in understanding what's going on. And like Casey's my mentor, right now, and this is something that I talk quite often in the group about, and like, need help with because like, I'll bring something up and then Casey or Sarah will remind me to just like, kind of sit back and listen and not give us try and give us solution right away. And it's just so important for the client, I mean, the both of both coach client but for the client to be able to just sit for a second and like understand what's going on and not just try and change something right away.

Johan Vesters:

When you just mentioned that right sitting on your hands. I was like that was me like half a year ago, you know, as we went through a course with you. I was negotiated Hang on. So I've been just throwing like advice at people you know, without even being okay, you know, what would you do in this scenario? You know, like, what do you think? What do you think is good idea? Like, what can we learn from this like asking those questions like that's what I mean you know, like, they should literally change my the way I coach, you know, and results have been just so much better because of that, because, and this it comes from a good place. You know, like as coaches. We want to help we have the ideas we have the knowledge and we know to shed but still like it's going to be some was more effective if we actually have the client kind of make that decision or think about that stuff or realize itself? And I think, yeah, I mean, that's, for me, that was the crazy, like, the biggest change, you know. And it's funny too, because I still also have them, those moments where you're like, I, I almost call myself, the guy doing that, again, you know, coming up with ideas or, you know, kind of jumping the gun there.

Kasey Jo:

An interesting connection here is that it's not just the awareness of the client, there is a responsibility for the coach to become aware of how they're coaching, too. And that kind of like, connects back into the health mindset coaching certification and a lot of stuff that we've talked about there. Because thinking about it, like, how much more powerful is it for the coach to go to the client and say, Where do you think your fixed mindset might be showing up, like, go pay attention for the next two days, and come back to me and tell me like what you see personally, because I don't necessarily know your life, I don't know what's going on in your head. So come back and tell me versus the coach saying, Hey, I just read through your check in and it sounds like you have a fixed mindset, right? We're like, Who What do you think is gonna work better? They're like, obviously, if the client is saying, like, Hey, Coach, like, I think this is where my fixed mindset is showing up. And it's something I want to work on versus the coach saying, hey, client, like, you've got a fixed mindset we need to work on that like that is not ever going to work as well as the client coming to the coach or kind of coming to the realization themselves. So that said, I think what's important for coaches who are out there, or if you're a client, you're working with a coach, think about whether or not your coach actually operates in this way. Are they guiding you to come to these realizations? Or are they like trying to essentially put these realizations into your head? And you can tell like, if you're sitting here like, yeah, actually, my coach is the one who's like, telling me what to do all the time and making me aware of things, I'm not necessarily noticing stuff myself, do you notice that you don't have as great of a relationship with that coach? Or do you notice that your your progress is a little bit slower, or that it's harder for you to trust this person and get behind what it is that they are suggesting that you try? Because it all comes down to that stuff? Right? Like it is, this isn't just like a communication thing, or a fun strategy to try. It is effective coaching, period. And I think that that's what's so important about all of this, that it's not just like a, oh, let's just talk about like mindset for a little bit, and how you can just put some of it into your coaching practices, no, like, this should be how you coach, if you want to be the best type of coach, like the end.

Kristine Andali:

Totally, yeah. And that type of coaching, you connect with your clients so much more. And someone like Casey, you've talked about this a few times, like connection with your clients is so important. I mean, it's gonna drive adherence is gonna drive commitment, all of that. And like, I see this show up in applications, and you talked about this before, Casey, where, like, clients will come and they will say, you know, I had this really good experience with my coach, you know, we made progress and like, everything was great, but I didn't connect with them. Right. And that is a huge piece in coaching. And where a lot of this, like actual mindset coaching helps, right is really connecting, helping you connect with a client on a deeper level, like, I, I connect, like, some of my clients, I'm so connected with them on a deep, deep level that, like, I know, everything about them, you know, like what makes them tick, like stuff that's going on in their lives. And like, if these people stay with me for like, two to three years, right, and of course, like, yeah, I see myself as a good coach, I know, I can always improve, but a lot comes down to that connection.

Johan Vesters:

I've had that to where some people, they get the they get like the good results, right, you know, in terms of like weight loss, they lose like a couple of kilos on Sunday. But exactly like you said, they miss that connection. And it's like, I had a chat with someone recently. And she was like, Well, okay, well, with my previous coach. I didn't really feel like I could share stuff. I didn't really feel I could, I could mention, hey, I kind of overdid it last week, um, but you know, I just under eight, you know, the next day and then kind of just fix it. Or she felt like, you know, she didn't feel like safe enough to mention the mental issues, the struggles, she was dealing with a lot of stress, insomnia, those kinds of things. You know, definitely like crazy cravings and like binge like tendencies, you know, but didn't feel like you could share that because it was almost like hey, I'm now like doing bad, right? I'm not following the program. I'm not following the meal plan. So it's on me, you know what I mean? And I see this a lot like people almost feel like a number sometimes where it's like, okay, well, I'm just supposed to do this. But there's there's a lack of connection. You know, it's so big. So huge.

Kasey Jo:

Yeah, that's interesting to visit makes me think about something that is extremely important. In general, like for every human being is psychological safety. So you may notice this, like, someone listening, maybe like, yeah, I wasn't, I was in a relationship with someone at some point where I felt like I couldn't really express my needs, or I couldn't tell them what I was like struggling with because I didn't want to like hurt their feelings, or make them feel like they were the wrong one like, that is a psychologically unsafe relationship. And so funny, I feel like anytime we're talking about like coach to client relationship, like the stuff that you guys can probably attest to, can show up in your friendships and your relationships with your parents and your relationships with your significant others, like friendships like everyone, it's like all the same thing. We're just talking about relationships with other human beings. And sometimes in the coaching relationship, I feel like coaches forget this. And they're like, No, this is just a service transaction. But the reality is, you really need to see it as a relationship and thinking about how you can help your clients feel psychologically safe, because the more safe they feel, the more they're going to be willing to share with you. And the more they're willing to share with you, the better you can coach them. And just like you were saying, Johan being in those situations where a client may feel like, I don't know if I can actually share this with my coach, or I don't know, if I feel safe enough to share everything that's going on in my personal life and things like that, when all of that is extremely important for their health and fitness goals, you know, so I think it's really important to the events, set those expectations with clients at the forefront, like I want to hear it all I want to hear what's going on at work, I want to hear what's going on at home, especially if you think it's impacting your ability to get to the gym or eat healthy, or meal prep, or all of these things that we're kind of talking about, like, Tell me about it, you know, and like doing your best to create a psychologically safe environment. And sometimes that means maybe sharing some stuff that's going on with you as well. So there is that sort of like reciprocation as well, which is also extremely important and in the relationship. So yeah, really, really important stuff.

Kristine Andali:

Yeah, big time. Okay, so I'm gonna kind of like switch topics here, because there's another really great topic I think a lot of people can get value from. And that's how stress can impact self control. And I know like you just like, this is something you talked about in HMC. And like, you just did a whole thing on it. And I know this can be a pretty detailed conversation. But what are your thoughts on that? Yeah,

Kasey Jo:

the kind of broad overview is that stress and self control are essentially enemies, right. So even down to like, from like a neuroscience perspective, I'm not a neuroscientist, and I will not pretend that I am one. But I know a decent amount about the brain just from a psychological perspective. So your self control essentially lives for lack of a better term in your prefrontal cortex, which is like the huge lobe right behind your forehead, it's our most developed region of the brain. And so that is where we see things like attention and control and deliberate decision making and things like that. So self control lives there. But then stress is an entirely different part of your brain moreso utilizes regions in the midbrain region, so entirely different part of your brain, essentially. And it's really difficult for us to like, of course, we have all parts of our brain active all of the time, we're not only using just one piece at a time, but we're essentially using the majority of our energy in one area or the other, right, like our focus is in one area versus another. So if you're super stressed out, and you're thinking about the things that you're stressed about, and that's turning it into sort of like a fear or a threat response, which may be using your like amygdala, these are entirely different brain structures. And that's where you're sending the majority of your mental resources to, compared to that big lobe behind your forehead, the prefrontal cortex or your self control lives. Now, we're essentially diverting resources away from that. So and it kind of all plays into sympathetic versus parasympathetic responses as well like your, your stress, your fight or flight response is a sympathetic response. And if you want to be like resting, digesting, pausing planning, that is your parasympathetic response, and that is requiring that prefrontal cortex more so it's really hard to be sympathetic and parasympathetic at the same time. It's honestly like pretty impossible, you're always leaning towards one or the other in some regard. So you can see now where stress and self control are kind of like butting heads in that way. And it can be really hard to exert self control when you're in a stressed state. And it can be really hard to be super stressed, if you feel like you're in a very, like deliberate decision making planning self control type of state. So that's like kind of the the high level overview of how those things kind of play together or honestly, like really don't play well together. But something that's important to make your appointments important to make here is that there was this long standing theory of ego depletion, and you can still look it up. There's hundreds and hundreds of studies out there, this idea that your self control gets depleted throughout the day. So we're talking about all these mental resources, right? So there's this thought process and this theory out there in psychology land, that the more you use your self control, the more those resources get depleted, and the less likely you're going to be able to actually continue to exert self control. So we thought this was the case for a long time, I've even like had to update some parts of HMC See, as this research has kind of like progressed and changed over time. And now, we actually know that it's less about how much self control you have, and whether or not gets depleted throughout the day, and more about your mindset surrounding self control. And whether or not you think that your self control gets depleted throughout the day. So this is all true, your self control will get depleted throughout the day as you use it, if you think it will, if you believe you truly believe like, no, no matter what, like I can still exert the amount of self control that I need to in any given situation, doesn't matter. If I use it all day long already, like I can still like show up and use it, then you're not going to notice these depletion effects. So I think that's obviously very cool being a mindset researcher that at the end of the day, your mindset matters most in these circumstances. And we're kind of seeing how mindset is even more powerful than what we saw of like hundreds and hundreds of studies showing something different. So the way that conversation is kind of shifting, has changed a lot when it comes to self control research. And I even had, probably in the last year or so spoken to my PhD advisor because she's a social psychologist. And she's teaching on these concepts literally in at NC State University in the classroom, and asked her about it. And she even said, like, No, I do not teach it that way anymore, because of how much the narrative has shifted around it. So I think that's really interesting. And I do like, still, from time to time see people like talking about it in an incorrect manner and that way, and what's actually unfortunate about that is that if the truth is your mindset matters most here and we're out here telling people like based on the research, your self control gets depleted. And that's what people are going to start to think that and believe for themselves. Like that's exactly what's going to happen to them. That's a self fulfilling prophecy, right? So that's where some of this stuff can actually become dangerous in a way, and a mindset perspective. And we see that a lot in social media, and just general like content creation, that you don't realize how these messages can actually make a significant impact in someone's mindset.

Kristine Andali:

And there's like, within that there is fixed and growth mindset, right? The fixed mindset of it does get depleted throughout the day. And there's only so much versus growth mindset have no like, I have endless amount of self control if I believe I do.

Johan Vesters:

Correct you got it or even like comparing it to someone else, you know, because someone might think with more of like a fixed sort of fixed robots. Like, I wish I had that much willpower like Kristine nose or whoever, you know, like, No, actually you get to decide that. Right? It's not like they have more willpower than you do. You actually decide. And I do think people should know what education is totally right. Because people might hear that on social media, where it's like okay, well I guess you know, I will park is deplete so I can do anything about it is like no, I actually can and people need to know this stuff. But it's also kind of like the tricky thing, I guess with social media and research it continuously just, you know, evolves and changes and we're just super cool. It's also hard to keep up with not everyone is great at keeping up with it. So there's like so much stuff going around, especially these days it's it's just becoming crazier with like the the mess of like information and misinformation and information that changes online, you know, so it's, I guess it's also tough, you know, like spreading the stuff that's right, and like, really getting like updated knowledge from from people, you know, which is also maybe plays into, like, just be aware of like, who you follow and like, make sure they know their shit, or at least, that they do their due diligence, like, look up the more recent research, you know,

Kristine Andali:

I have a question in terms of self control and environment. So like, say somewhat like the wood someone's environment. So say they, you know, they struggle with, you know, over eating or like indulging and things like that. Does this still, how do I word this? Obviously, their mindset still plays into it, but the environment would make an impact on that, too. Like, does should someone do an inventory about their environment? Does it not keep those foods in the house? Or keep the food's in the house and practice the self control around that? Like, what are your thoughts on that? Yeah,

Kasey Jo:

that's a that's a very good question. Because now it becomes, okay, so do we just believe in ourselves that we're good to go. And I'll always have the self control that I need. Because, like, I feel like I have a decent amount of self control. But there's still situations where it ends up lapsing. So there's something like mismatched here still, right? And there's actually a very cool study on this. Exactly. And they essentially asked a group of people if they saw themselves as being good at self control. And then they had essentially these two separate groups, people who said, No, I'm pretty good at self control, which would probably honestly, all three of us would probably say, like, Yes, I'm pretty good at self control, my health and fitness professional. And the other group said, like, no, that's like, my downfall, I definitely suck at self control, like that is not my strong suit. And then they kind of looked into both of these groups a little bit more, and realized that the people who say like, Yes, I'm actually very good at self control. I'm a health and fitness professional. I'm a coach, like, I know this stuff, like, it's not difficult for me to say no to things, whatever. They are the same people who are just setting up their environments and setting up their lives. So they don't have to use self control a lot in the first place. Whereas the people who are saying, Yep, I suck at self control, that is not something that I am good at. Those are the people who simply are just having to exert self control more frequently. So they're putting themselves in situations, they're constantly involved in environments that require them to use self control. So it's really not a I'm good, or I'm not good at self control type of issue. It's are you putting yourself in an environment that requires you to use self control, because the truth of the matter is, if you're having to use it all of the time, the chances of it lapsing and you giving in at some point are much higher, versus if you set yourself up for success, and you're not in situations where you have to exercise self control a lot, suddenly, you become very good at it. Right. So I think that that's very interesting. So I really think like, the best way to go about it is to number one, understand that your mindset matters most, and that you truly do have unlimited amounts of self control. And like, you're not necessarily going to lose some throughout the day as you use it. But also make sure you're not putting yourself in situations where you have to test it all of the time. And that kind of is like, altogether the secret sauce for having more self control. Right.

Kristine Andali:

Got it? Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, cuz I used to, I've heard it from, like, just in the nutrition, that space, like, keep the food in the house. And, you know, you should be able to eventually not go for those things like you, you build, you know, this self control. And like, Me, personally, I've gone back and forth with that over the years. But I think, like, what I've learned, too, is like, it can depend on like, the person and the client as well, like the individual, for sure, because I've definitely taken like different approaches with different clients. And it's, it's worked or it hasn't worked.

Kasey Jo:

Yeah, and I think something that's important to note with that, too, is that it doesn't always have to be like, Oh, well, let's just remove everything that is tempting from my life all of the time. You could also just make it a little bit more difficult for yourself, right? Like we see this a lot in like the habit research is the idea of increasing the friction, right? So yes, maybe keep the Oreos you don't need to get rid of all of the like fun foods that you enjoy. But maybe just put the Oreos on the top shelf of the pantry. So you have to pull out like a step stool in order to get to them. Because what that really does is just gives you a little bit of extra time to think like do I actually want these do I actually want to do this rather than just like Oh, here they are another in my hand. Now I already ate them. I don't even really have time to think now. It's like, oh, I have to pull up the stool. I have to like reach up and like move the comes out of the way and finally get the thing. And it's like it's giving you that extra time to almost like, do a bit of a pattern interrupt. So the more you can just like make the things a little bit more difficult for yourself, that can make a big difference to without having to be like, well just get rid of everything. Because I would agree, Kristine, sometimes that just kind of seems like a band aid approach to like, you're just like, okay, instead of actually thinking about this, or learning how I can have these things in moderation, it can feel very restrictive. And the more restricted you feel, the less likely you are to be successful, too. So I think, from my professional perspective, that it's not, I wouldn't say just get rid of all of the tempting things, sure it set yourself up for success. But if there's something that you really enjoy in your life, that is somewhat tempting, and maybe isn't the best for your health and fitness goals, think about how you can keep it in your life, and maybe just make it a little bit more difficult for you to do.

Kristine Andali:

Yeah, I saw, I think it was it was like someone referencing a study recently, where in the study, they had, like, put the apples like in front of the cookies. And if the apples are in front of the cookies, you're way more likely to go for the Apple versus the cookie. You know, I mean, even though the cookies still there, which was super interesting to me.

Johan Vesters:

I was laughing because I was like, you gotta use Oreos as an example. Because that's one of those, for me. That's like, I can just have one, I just know that you know, and there's other stuff that we can have in a house and like, that's cool, you know, what that one is just kind of, like, I won't stop. So I just don't buy it. And that's not even kind of like there's not restricted or anything, it's just like, I just know myself, okay. And it's the same with chocolate, by the way, those are the two. Like, I just don't get it, you know, and then sometimes I'll just get something when I'm out or whatever. But like, those are the ones for me, you know, and it's also about, like, creating awareness around that stuff. But here, so with that habit creation, which is actually one of the things I also have written down, like, with habit creation, making it more obvious or less obvious to happen, you know, very effective, but it also becomes a little more difficult when you're in House of the family with kids running around, you know, with a partner and other people with different goals, you know, so it's, it's really about, I guess, just kind of like trying to figure it out. And also just like not stopping there, you know. But I kind of want to actually touch on habits anyway. Because I feel like these days as as much as I love, like the habit stuff. It's almost like people are like, oh, you know, because I've seen people post like, you know, die some work. I just do habits. And it's like, yeah, okay, cool. So you just do habits. We just decided this is my habit now like, No, it doesn't work that way. Right? So tell us a little bit about kind of like habit creation, how long it might take, right? Because I've seen a lot of different stuff online. Kind of your thoughts about that there. Because I feel like that's really one of those things where people are, you know, they go through years of doing something that's maybe not great for health, over and over and over again. Stuff that becomes a habit, like how would you kind of break that and start to introduce new habits, you know?

Kasey Jo:

Mm hmm. Yeah. Well, first, um, fun fact is that we do, there's only one study. So it's not like, oh, we know this, for sure. Or it's like super well, like quantified or validated. But we do have one study that shows on average, it takes you closer to 66 days to form a new habit. But this is a range of like 18 days to like 200 and something days. So there really is a huge variability here. And it's going to depend on the person, it's going to depend on this specific habit that we're talking about. I know that there's like the it's like a 21 day rule, and you hear that a lot like it takes 21 days to form a new habit. And that's like very just like not substantiated at all. I actually think it came from a read this at one point came from like a plastic surgeon who noticed that it took people around three weeks or 21 days before they started to really get used. So the plastic surgery that they got that they got their nose done, or they like a facelift or whatever it is that people do. And they it's usually takes them about, like 21 days to start to see themselves as like, Oh, I'm used to seeing myself this way. And that is where we got the 21 days from for habits it's like I'm getting used to it you know, it's become more like my normal, which is just like bizarre to me that that's what happens very similar Kristine to that like 2100 Calorie thing with Oh my god. So that's the story for a different time. But yeah, not 2100 1200 calories, but yeah, so yes, yes, yes, yes. So, yeah, with that said, I know that it takes a various amount of times like it depends, right like that's the answer that people never want to hear, but it truly does depend on the person on the call. context, things like that for how long it's going to take you. And what I would say is very similar to what we're talking before with about this idea of friction, something that can be really helpful to just keep in mind if you are trying to break a quote unquote bad habit, or you're trying to create a new healthier habit, try to see from a friction perspective what you can do first. So breaking a bad habit similar to like the Oreos you're talking about, it's just like, make it more difficult for you to do. And it doesn't have to be the like, just never buy them like Johan is doing. But you can just like make it more difficult for you, right? The flip side of this is if you are trying to start a new habit, get into something healthier, how easy, can you make it for yourself, like make it as easy as possible. And that can look like a lot of different things, it could mean yes, like putting the apples in front of the cookies, right. So it's the easier thing to reach for cutting up the vegetables. So they're like, in an easier like grab and go type of manner, setting out your gym clothes the night before, holding yourself accountable with a friend like all of these things are going to make it easier for you. And the easier it is, the more likely you are to do it. And then you can really start to start those habits sort of like off on the right foot. Because the easier it is, the more likely you're going to do it if you're making it difficult for yourself, which a lot of people are doing and they're not realizing it because their their autopilot mode. And the way that they've always done things makes it more difficult to do the things that they're they're wanting to do, right? So really taking a look to see like, how can I make it making it easier for myself to turn on the next Netflix show versus go to the gym. And right now it's like, well, I go home right after work, and I'm exhausted and I need to eat and all these things. And so I make a snack and I sit in front of the TV. And next thing I know what it's been six episodes, right? Like, okay, well, you're making it really easy for yourself to like, perpetuate what you're currently doing. How do we change that maybe don't go home, go straight to the gym and bring food with you. So you have no reason to go home first, right? So just like starting to think and some people, when I've had this conversations with clients in the past, they're like, Oh, my God, you're right. Like I am making it way too easy for me to like, perpetuate this stuff. But people don't realize it because they truly are on autopilot mode. I think the the statistic is that close to like 40 to 50% of our daily actions are habitual. So it does take effort. And I think that's something to keep in mind, from a mindset perspective is that like, don't expect it to be easy. Like it will be difficult to kind of pick out where you need to make things different and where what changes you need to make and understand that it's not super easy to like break away from like your day to day mold, especially if it's been that way for years, maybe decades. So give yourself some grace with that and understand like, may take at least 66 days if not more. But just keep looking for ways to make it easier. And then also how you're making it harder for yourself.

Kristine Andali:

There's one thing I can't like I think you touched on it a little bit here. But it was in one of my clients check ins today. I don't think it's called habit stacking. I'm forgetting what it's called. Where so for example, he's trying to get more water in like he's just struggling with it. So what he's going to do is he's going to have like a 12 ounce 12 ounces of water before he has his coffee, so he can't have his coffee until he has his 12 ounces of water. What's that called Zaba stacking.

Kasey Jo:

It is habit stacking, because the coffee is a habit already. So it's already a habit of his to wake up and have coffee. So you could do that with anything if it's like first thing I do when I wake up in the morning is let my dog outside, right? So maybe they could be leaving a glass of water by the door where they go to let their dog outside. So same thing is like the coffee is essentially a habit at this point. So there's also a little bit of like a reward piece to that too, where it's like, I get to have the coffee once I have the water so there's that kind of like additional layer added to it which is helpful. But yeah, it is habit stacking.

Kristine Andali:

Okay, well, we're on an hour. This was awesome. For sure.

Johan Vesters:

That being said, Where can people find you? Is there anything you want to share? Announce?

Kasey Jo:

Yeah, I am mostly on Instagram. I am trying to get on Tik Tok. I say this I think I've been saying this at the end of podcast episodes for like the last year and a half. Yeah, I'm trying to get on Tik Tok. It's not really changed a whole lot. Basically just like repost My oh my gosh. Yeah. So mostly on Instagram, if you're interested in free content, free resources, the whole shebang, more stuff like this. I'm Coach Casey, Joe over there. Obviously we talked a lot about the health mindset coaching certification. So if you're interested in more information on that we have a separate Instagram account for Have that in a separate website and that's health mindset cert. That's both the.com and also the Instagram handle. But yeah, otherwise you can pretty much find everything by going over to Instagram. kJ Oh coaching.com is another great spot to land on if you're interested in seeing more of what I do more podcasts that I've been on things of that nature, but Yeah,

Johan Vesters:

amazing. Thank you so much for sharing this with us. Happy to have you on. Let's do this again in future. Yeah, sounds good to the listener. We will talk to you again next week.

Introduction - Kasey Jo Orvidas, PhD
Fixed vs Growth Mindset
How To Cultivate A Growth Mindset
Why It's Important For Coach & Client To CONNECT
Stress vs Self Control
Setting Up Your Environment For Behavior Change
How Long Does It Take To Create A New Habit?
Outro - KJO Coaching / HMCC