31 - [Thermic Effect of Food] Frequent Small Meals For A Fast Metabolism?

Johan Vesters: 0:32

What's up and welcome back. Talking Nutrition 31! Did you know that you burn more calories if you eat tiny, tiny meals about 20 times per day. Maybe not. We'll find out today. No, not really. Today we're gonna talk about the thermic effect of food, basically calories you burn through digestion, which actually does account for about 10% of your total daily energy expenditure, which is it counts, you know, it's not going to move the needle. It's not gonna, like make you lose fat, but it's a nice little bonus, you know, like the mindset of study, which, by the way, I base a blog on so I'll link that below as well. But first, I just want to do a little catch up. Because you got a second dog, right?

Kristine Andali: 1:24

Yeah, so um, it was something that we are thinking about for a while because one of Eric's friends almost adopted her than Eric's parents almost adopted her. And it just was like swirling around in my head for so long. I couldn't stop thinking about it. And it's it's roses cousin. So they have to say, or no, there's their mothers, our sisters. And the original owner brought her back to the breeder couldn't take care of her for some reason, which I was like, she's so easy. She's super affectionate, super loving. And these two are getting along really good. So it's definitely like, they're crazy when they play and it's like chaos, when I'm trying to work. And so some days, Eric's been taking stormy, so we could just like chill, and I can actually focus on my work. But other than that, it's been just, it's been so good.

Johan Vesters: 2:19

I love that. I think. Because, like, we've always had two pets. You know, you know, we had two dogs when I grew up, and it was always two. And I think that's a good thing. Because they have each other you know, yeah, even if you're like, not home, they will they'll play together. And I don't know, I think or I believe it's probably better for the pet in general. Anyway, you know,

Kristine Andali: 2:40

yeah, they're, they're opposites. So like, Rose is so crazy. Like, I don't think I realized how crazy Rose was until stormy came into the picture. Like she is so hyper, super high energy. And, and stormy is like super chill and super affectionate and roses affectionate but Stormies like on another level, so they kind of balance each other out, which is good.

Johan Vesters: 3:07

That's great. I love that. It's great. I can't wait to get a dog eventually. Yeah, gotta get a house first. Yeah, right now we're in an apartment with two cats already. So be chaos. Yes, my girlfriend is allergic. So we got to, we've got to figure out a situation because I do really want to have a dog. I'm a dog person. You know? I guess I'm both.

Kristine Andali: 3:33

I grew up with cats. And then for the first time last year, and I was like, why haven't Why didn't I ever have a dog?

Johan Vesters: 3:41

I feel like people get so passionate about this shit. It's kind of like the pineapple on pizza thing. It's like, yeah, at the end of the day, who the fuck cares? I know. Who the fuck cares. Because I've seen people literally like almost fight on this show about this shit. This? Well, about the pizza thing. But even like with cats and dogs, you know, I told someone not too long ago when we got these two. And they were like, oh, yeah, no, I like dogs. I don't like cat sounds like Well, yeah. Cool. Like, let me have guests. And like, they're great. Anyway, I didn't think we were going to talk about pets today. But we probably should, because there's actually research behind this. You know, there is research on the think. lower stress when you have pets, you're

Kristine Andali: 4:30

good for your hormones. Also, yeah.

Johan Vesters: 4:34

Sure, extra anabolic. Yeah. Cool. So thermic effect. Real quick. Before we get into this sort of effects, like I said, it's about 10% of your total daily energy expenditure. And you can kind of influence that by adjusting your macro split, right. So once again, is not really going to be like the biggest mover, but it does count. Now real quick. If we look at protein, carbs and fats, proteins is going to be 20 to 30%. carbs, five to 10. And then fats zero to three. So that means that when you eat protein, off those calories, 20 to 30% gets burned off through digestion already. For carbs is five to 10 Once again, if that's zero to three, so you can kind of influence that. And then also, by eating fiber as well, you'll you'll increase your thermic effect. So altogether, food quality is going to matter. And I do think that in the long term, you're going to benefit from eating mostly Whole Foods, having a higher protein diet, etc. In terms of at least supporting fat loss, and then also just making it easier because those foods are also more filling, right protein, fiber, etc. So all great stuff. So first kind of want to bust a myth, Christine, because we've all heard that eating tiny meals, many times, many, many times, there is a day spikes in metabolism, right?

Kristine Andali: 6:05

Yeah, I definitely think that this is exaggerated. Very much exaggerated. We had said on here that it came from bodybuilders I'm not is that where it came from? Think

Johan Vesters: 6:20

I've heard. So I'm not sure that that's why I put likely so like, I have heard that where people sometimes think like, while they look at bodybuilders, they were like bulking and they had to get so much food in or something. And I do believe at some point, they thought it was higher, based on like how often you would eat. But turns out not to be true. That's the cool thing about research too. We just learn new shit and then sometimes ends up not being true, you know?

Kristine Andali: 6:50

Right, right. So thermic effect of food, it's more so gonna depend. So an increase in thermic effect of food is moreso gonna depend on, you know, your total daily, your total caloric intake for the day, also, like Johan mentioned, like protein, right is going to increase that thermic effect of food. Verse, carbs and fats. So it comes down to more so how much you're eating and those that macros split? Or, I mean, if you're not tracking macros, just how much protein you're in taking or fiber you're in taking?

Johan Vesters: 7:30

Yeah. Yeah. And I think once again, I do think it's a good idea to try to at least leverage that at least those foods, you know, Oh, yeah. Because if we would look at something like let's say, a diet is completely like processed stuff. And processed foods are already, like, more easily absorbed and stuff easier to break down. That first is like, you know, like a mostly whole food minimally processed food diet, I do think that's going to be a big difference, you know? Yeah, totally. But yeah, once again, so it does depend on the total amount. That you,

Kristine Andali: 8:06

yeah, because if you're, for example, like thermic effect of food, so it's going to decrease, say you're in a cut, your thermic effect of food is going to decrease simply because you're eating less food, right? And vice versa. If you're reverse dieting or maintenance, your thermic effect will increase because you're you're eating more food.

Johan Vesters: 8:27

Yeah. So like, it is true that your, you know, your metabolic rate increases after eating, but it's not like you're going to get more and more just by eating 678 meals. Right. Cool. So I did want to mention this study here, which I thought was really cool. And then we'll get into why we actually think it's important to to have a frequent schedule, right, that's kind of set. So there was a 2022 randomized control trial published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. And it looked at the effect of a irregular meal pattern versus kind of like a more consistent one, right? That looked at the effects on thermic effect, which is our main topic today. And they also looked at glucose, insulin, lipid profile appetite regulation, in women who were are overweight, or with obesity and confirmed insulin resistance. So the researchers had a group of women consume six meals each day for two weeks on one occasion, and three to nine meals a day for two weeks. On another occasion, this was randomized. So all meals were provided to the women. So the total energy intake should be identical. Now, afterwards, they measured the thermic effect of a test meal. And it found that it was 27% Higher after having a constant daily meal frequency, which is kind of crazy if you think about it. So that's a big difference. I still don't think that's going to be the biggest mover. But I do believe this counts, you know, and it does show like there is actually a benefit to that. But it's not just about the thermic effect. Right? Because I think we're both equally big on having kind of like a schedule like a set meal frequency and creating the structure, right, having a daily consistent meal. Frequency.

Kristine Andali: 10:25

Yes. Did we mention like thermic effect of food like what it actually is? Did you mention that that beginning Like stomach defective food is how many? Okay, I didn't know if you had said like, it's how much we burn from digesting and absorbing. Okay. Just make sure just want to make sure. So yeah, we're we're very sorry. We're talking about

Johan Vesters: 10:54

what why we think it's important to have, like a consistent meal schedule, you know, like having saying, Okay, I'm going to eat four times a day.

Kristine Andali: 11:03

Yeah, um, I actually have experience with this, I'm sure that you do. I was the type of person that would eat kind of like, all day, like, I'd have my breakfast and then stack and then lunch snacks, and like random snacks in between. And I was always hungry when I was doing that, and I switched. And I started having bigger breakfasts, which then kept me satiated. until lunch, I'd have a bigger lunch, which then would keep me satiated for like a midday snack. And then I'd have my dinner. And I was I basically was only eating four to four times a day, and my hunger leveled out. And I was not hungry all day. And it's because I was having those, you know, the meal, the meals were spread out, you know, three to four hours in between, they were bigger meals, and they're just more satiating verse, if you're having smaller meals throughout the day, again, they're not going to be satiating, hunger is going to be high, and then it's more, you're more likely to over consume calories when doing that, right, like snacking and stuff like that. So that person I've experienced with that it also what plays into that is blood sugar, right. So like giving yourself, you know, three to four hours in between meals helps to regulate blood sugar. Versus if you're have eating all day, your blood sugar's kind of going up, down, up, down, up, down, and that can cause more hunger and cravings, too. So the bigger, more balanced meals, helps with hunger, and it helps us to tidy are the same thing, but it helps with regulating blood sugar, which is gonna play into hunger and satiety.

Johan Vesters: 13:03

Yeah, for sure. I think it just makes it way more simple to follow as well,

Kristine Andali: 13:08

but not to like, and the thing is, like, I think people who have scheduled schedules like the same schedule, it can be really easy. I mean, sometimes this can be a little bit trickier when someone has a busier schedule. But I mean, that's going to be an individual thing to figure out, right?

Johan Vesters: 13:30

Yeah, I'm like, you could say, hey, you know, I have four meals a day. I eat five times a day, you know, for three years six, whatever, like, I would say, from experience with my clients, at least four to five seems to be the sweet spot for most people. I'm not a big fan of three I will say at least for thinking like staying full muscle building etc six, I mean people use already struggle coming up with meals for like four meals, you know,

Kristine Andali: 14:02

I feel like that's getting to the point where like, you're kind of eating all day long. Things are starting to

Johan Vesters: 14:09

Yeah, it's it's really just personal preference as well. So like how often do you eat now total? Four? Yeah, yeah. Cool. I'm usually add let me think because I'm like four to five have been a little a little random recently. Depending on my my day with my post on my pre workout shake, so I have breakfast. Yeah, okay. Five. Yeah, I try to I try to stick to five. Just because my phone is going up and up. You know, I like to switch it to sometimes.

Kristine Andali: 14:44

You'd like to switch it

Johan Vesters: 14:45

sometimes. Yeah. Because I got to a point in my cut where I was like, Well, I'm eating five meals and I just don't like how small these meals are anymore. Right? I figured that I found out I do. I do pretty good in the morning. Moving breakfast later. So I just moved to do for you so can I have bigger meals. I like bigger meals. I enjoy that more.

Kristine Andali: 15:08

Say there's I know we've talked about this but there's definitely like a psychological aspect to that to where like you're eating more volume and things like that. I just, it helps me feel full. I mean, the volume will but it's just I like eating big meals. It helps from a psychological standpoint. And not eating all day long to like you give died Josh and I break as well, which we want to do, right? Like, we don't just want to be constantly eating all day we can run into like bloating and things like that. I mean, and that's why again, that's another reason why I usually space like three to four hours in between meals, just to give my digestion a break.

Johan Vesters: 16:20

For sure, I mean, it even plays into like your hunger hormones and stuff. Like, we all know that feeling like when you go to the doctor or something or get a blood test, and you fast morning, and you're used to eating breakfast at eight or nine, whatever. You'll notice, if you don't have that breakfast, you'll get hungry at that time, too. Yeah, yeah, you're,

Kristine Andali: 16:39

you're changing up your hunger cues, and your body will adapt to those.

Johan Vesters: 16:44

Yeah. And I'd say just in general, with pretty much everything, like your body does really do very well having a routine, you know, that goes to sleep. But I mean, like, pretty much everything else as well, like everything runs on its own, like biological clock, you know, right. And I do think all that aside, no, if we just look at like, the practical side of things, it's just gonna make it easier for you to stick to knowing, hey, I have my breakfast, lunch, dinner, evening meal, whatever you want to call it, right? Instead of up, maybe I'll eat three times today, or maybe six, or I'll just eat whenever I feel like it. I think that's a lot of like, this might be like one of those things where people have a weird experience with like, macros and stuff. Because they're just trying to like, hit their collection here and there. And it's kind of like, well, there's no strategy here. Like, we're just kind of doing random shit. Right? You know? I sometimes have people work on this too, like from the very beginning. Again, if there's a lot of stuff going on a lot of stuff in there. We gotta fix it, though. Let's just start there. Yeah, come over frequency. Pick a couple of foods. And let's just try to stick to that for for a little bit, you know?

Kristine Andali: 18:02

Yeah. And like, all, you know, someone has a schedule that's kind of, you know, erratic, or they have different schedule on different days. Like, we make up different schedule timings for that, too. But, I mean, it's, I don't think that like, we need to say, Okay, I'm going to eat out like, eight and then I'm going to eat it. 12. And, like, there's got to be flexibility within this structure. 100% right, because that can just become stressful.

Johan Vesters: 18:34

Yeah, I think so too. Because then then you would almost get into like, the, this is me personally, when I got into intermittent fasting. And if we're talking like nutrients and mealtime and all that, like, that's kind of included in the two. It's not like how often you eat maybe, but like, How long, you know, or how much time you have to eat. But still, I there was a point where I took that too far. Where I was really worried to break my fast this was even like taking supplements. I was like Googling, like, does magnesium break your fast like those kind of things? Because I heard a certain crossfitter on YouTube saying how much he loved it. Not having any idea. If it would actually be a good idea for me. Guess what it wasn't. I was really fucking cranky. People around me, I was on tour back then two. People told me like, you just got to start eating in the evening because it's,

Kristine Andali: 19:32

I am definitely not the person who can intermittent fast, that's for sure.

Johan Vesters: 19:37

I mean, I do right now. Basically, I just don't call it that. But like, my mornings, like, I just, I kept that habits for my cut. And I enjoy it. You know?

Kristine Andali: 19:48

I got five morning.

Johan Vesters: 19:50

Yeah, I do as well. But I feel like somehow I can. I can just kind of sit them more focused and stuff. And I'm having like a very heavy meal in my stomach. Yeah, so I go for like, 510 I just kind of like It's just coffee, you know, so I guess I'm fasting but don't have to call it intermittent fasting. Right? Just eat when I like it, you know?

Kristine Andali: 20:10

Right? Um, I guess well, one thing when I was going through a lot of my rows, can you hear she's being alone? Hold on, let me let her out.

Johan Vesters: 20:23

There's gonna be a recurring theme. Rose crying leading.

Kristine Andali: 20:29

There we go. Quick. So one thing I was going through me still doing a lot of my gut stuff. It's just ongoing, but um, one thing I started to implement then was like, I just cut off eating around like seven at night and then I don't eat until, like eight. So I guess you could call that like intermittent fasting but I'm really just not eating. I'm just cutting off eating a certain time at night again. And that's and that's come mean from a standpoint of like, just giving my god a break?

Johan Vesters: 21:03

Yeah. 100%. And as I was watching that same brand real again this morning, I was laughing so hard. It's so fun. No, but like, I think with a meal frequency with a meal timing and even nutrient timing, like, I do want to also mention that this is a detail, right? If we look at the nutrition pyramid by our columns, and if the listener is not familiar with that, look it up nutrition pyramid by Eric Helms, it's amazing. But you'll see energy balance, you got macronutrients, and you have micronutrients. And then it's nutrient timing, and then supplements, but nutrient timing, like, it'll make a little bit of a difference. And it can and, um, I like getting a little bit more out of nutrient timing when it's when the time is right, you know, when when clients are ready for that. But I don't think altogether, that a lot of people should really worry about it. Yeah. If the rest is not taken care of. Yeah. Yeah.

Kristine Andali: 21:59

I agree. Yeah. Yeah, like you said, it's kind of like a detail to detail type of thing. But, I mean, again, totally depends on person. You know, some people are going to do better with the structure, you also have to just, you know, be aware of how you're feeling like, if you're having multiple meals during the day, and you're super hungry, you know, maybe we switch it up and try and figure, you know, stop melts and try bigger and less frequent meals. You know, there are people who just feel better with eating across the day more often. I mean, so again, it totally depends on the individual, and how they're, they're responding and how they're feeling. And really what works for them.

Johan Vesters: 22:47

Yeah, 100%. And your schedule, like your work? Yeah, if you want to eat five times, but your work literally doesn't allow for it. And, you know, let's maybe not eat five times a day, make it easier. Do you have a lot of shifts? We're doing clients?

Kristine Andali: 23:05

Not right now? No, they're totally, yes. But like, I have in the past, and, you know, you have like consistency and stuff is gonna look different, you know, depending on the day. It's something that you kind of have to like shift around. And there's a lot of trial and error that happens there in the beginning to figure out what actually works for that person. I feel like there's no definitive answer to give to, to. Oh, my gosh, I'm having a brain fart. There's no definitive answer to give them because, again, it totally depends on how they're feeling, what their schedule is actually, like, what their shifts working. Their shift hours are, right. So when I the the last one I had, we had to do a lot of trial and error to figure it out. Like when she was going to train, right, things like that.

Johan Vesters: 24:03

Yeah, it's tough. Now we have a big hospital here. And there's a lot of nurses here. And I've been getting more clients. From there, I guess. And it's hard. It's really hard. Like, there's, I mean, they're there to take care of people, but still got to take care of themselves too. And I will say, it becomes more difficult. I will say, Absolutely. tying that back to the middle frequency. We have now or at least with this one person, we're trying to still have those x meals, right. She's currently our three, we're going to work towards four, possibly. But she, she was on two. So it is already an improvement. And we're just trying to have kind of like a window, you know, of like enough hours so that we can kind of squeeze it, we can kind of make it work both on like the day and the night shift. So that's something we're trying right now. But what I will say like it's, it's more tricky.

Kristine Andali: 25:01

No big time. Yeah, shift workers are tough. Yeah. And I mean, I feel bad for them. In a sense, because I mean, just the circadian rhythm being thrown off like that it can really impact people, you know, so, but there's, you can make it work. You can make it work, you can figure it out, for sure.

Johan Vesters: 25:26

It's, it's not it's not optimal, you know, and it's not going to be, but you can still work with it for sure. I do think we need to be aware of like the downsides and the negative health consequences, but we can still mitigate them by at least trying to sleep enough and trying to stay consistent enough. Just work with what we have. But either way, I think it was a good little episode, where we ran through it a little quicker than expected. Okay, but I think that's cool. That's cool. I like the shorter episodes as well. Yeah, yeah. Cool. You have anything exciting coming up?

Kristine Andali: 26:10

Since? Yeah, yeah, we're taking the dogs. Yeah. Yeah. But other than that just just doing deep work on the business. Yeah, me too,

Johan Vesters: 26:23

a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes. So that being said, let's wrap it up. Just want to thank the listener once again for joining this episode. Please do us a HUGE favor. Take a quick screenshot, drop it in your Instagram stories, or drop us a review. If you'd like to do so. Or you know what you send to a friend. Send this episode to a friend who you think can benefit from this stuff. So that being said, See you next week Christine?

Kristine Andali: 26:51

Thanks for listening